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From: Taylor Gerring <taylor.gerring@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CANEZrP2PrhtFRPK4dSDFeu9iauqt_WJzCMrr+ynbAPRMBbDcOQ@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 14:48:58 +0100
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To: Mike Hearn <mike@plan99.net>
Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Floating fees and SPV clients
Precedence: list


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On Dec 3, 2013, at 2:20 PM, Mike Hearn <mike@plan99.net> wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 12:57 PM, Taylor Gerring =
<taylor.gerring@gmail.com> wrote:
> Why should there be two classes of transactions? Where does paying a =
local business at a farmer=92s stand lie in that realm? Transactions =
should work the same regardless of who is on the receiving end.
>=20
> Lots and lots of people are psychologically trained to expect that =
they pay the sticker price for things. Yes in recent times some places =
have started to show additional fees for using credit cards, but only as =
a way to try and push people onto cheaper forms of payment, not because =
customers love surcharges. It's for that reason that many merchants =
don't do this, even when they could - I pay for things with Maestro =
Debit all the time and I don't think I've ever seen a surcharge. That =
system obviously has costs, but they're included.
>=20
> This is just a basic cultural thing - when I buy something from a =
shop, the social expectation is that the seller should be grateful for =
receiving my money. "The customer is always right". When I send money to =
a friend, the social expectation is different. If my friend said, hey =
Mike, could you send me that 10 bucks you owe me from last weekend and =
what he receives is less than 10 bucks, he would probably feel annoyed - =
if I owe him 10 bucks then I owe him 10 bucks and it's my job the cover =
the fees. That's why PayPal makes sender pay fees in that case.
>=20
> Maybe we need new terminology for this. Interior fees for included in =
the price/receiver pays and exterior fees for excluded from the =
price/sender pays?
>=20
> Fees are only confusing because existing clients do a terrible job of =
presenting the information to the user. In Hive Wallet, I=92m of the =
opinion that we should inform the user in an intuitive way to let them =
make an informed decision.
>=20
> Have you thought through the UI for that in detail? How exactly are =
you going to explain the fee structure? Let the user pick the number of =
blocks they need to wait for? What's a block? Why should I care? Why =
shouldn't I just set the slider all the way to the other end and pay no =
fees at all? Is the merchant going to refuse to take my payment? Gavin =
just said that's not possible with Bitcoin-Qt. I'm thinking for bitcoinj =
I might go in a slightly different direction and not broadcast payments =
submitted via the payment protocol (and definitely not have one wire tx =
pay multiple payment requests simultaneously, at least not for consumer =
wallets).
>=20
>=20

Most of what you mentioned is entirely culture-dependant. In the =
majority of North America, sales tax is calculated at the point of sale =
on top of the advertised price. When my local government increases sales =
taxes, we feel it BECAUSE we see it. Expose information in a digestible =
way. Just because you don=92t instinctively know how to implement a UI =
for varying sender fees doesn=92t mean that other wallets don=92t.

Leave the fee structure alone. Instead, let=92s concentrate on how to =
calculate an accurate assessment of what a reasonable fee is for =
reliable service and let the software shake out the rest.

Taylor


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;"><br><div><div>On Dec 3, 2013, at 2:20 PM, Mike Hearn =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mike@plan99.net">mike@plan99.net</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 12:57 PM, Taylor Gerring =
<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:taylor.gerring@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank">taylor.gerring@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div class=3D"im"><div><span =
style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34)">Why should there be two classes of =
transactions? Where does paying a local business at a farmer=92s stand =
lie in that realm? Transactions should work the same regardless of who =
is on the receiving end.</span></div>
</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Lots and lots of people are =
psychologically trained to expect that they pay the sticker price for =
things. Yes in recent times some places have started to show additional =
fees for using credit cards, but only as a way to try and push people =
onto cheaper forms of payment, not because customers love surcharges. =
It's for that reason that many merchants don't do this, even when they =
could - I pay for things with Maestro Debit all the time and I don't =
think I've ever seen a surcharge. That system obviously has costs, but =
they're included.</div>
<div><br></div><div>This is just a basic cultural thing - when I buy =
something from a shop, the social expectation is that the seller should =
be grateful for receiving my money. "The customer is always right". When =
I send money to a friend, the social expectation is different. If my =
friend said, hey Mike, could you send me that 10 bucks you owe me from =
last weekend and what he receives is less than 10 bucks, he would =
probably feel annoyed - if I owe him 10 bucks then I owe him 10 bucks =
and it's my job the cover the fees. That's why PayPal makes sender pay =
fees in that case.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Maybe we need new terminology for this. <i>Interior =
fees</i> for included in the price/receiver pays and <i>exterior =
fees</i> for excluded from the price/sender =
pays?</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div class=3D"im"><div><span =
style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34)">Fees are only confusing because existing =
clients do a terrible job of presenting the information to the user. In =
Hive Wallet, I=92m of the opinion that we should inform the user in an =
intuitive way to let them make an informed decision.</span></div>
</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Have you thought through =
the UI for that in detail? How exactly are you going to explain the fee =
structure? Let the user pick the number of blocks they need to wait for? =
What's a block? Why should I care? Why shouldn't I just set the slider =
all the way to the other end and pay no fees at all? Is the merchant =
going to refuse to take my payment? Gavin just said that's not possible =
with Bitcoin-Qt. I'm thinking for bitcoinj I might go in a slightly =
different direction and not broadcast payments submitted via the payment =
protocol (and definitely not have one wire tx pay multiple payment =
requests simultaneously, at least not for consumer wallets).</div>
</div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br><div>Most of what you mentioned is entirely =
culture-dependant. In the majority of North America, sales tax is =
calculated at the point of sale on top of the advertised price. When my =
local government increases sales taxes, we feel it BECAUSE we see it. =
Expose information in a digestible way. Just because you don=92t =
instinctively know how to implement a UI for varying sender fees doesn=92t=
 mean that other wallets don=92t.</div><div><br></div><div>Leave the fee =
structure alone. Instead, let=92s concentrate on how to calculate an =
accurate assessment of what a reasonable fee is for reliable service and =
let the software shake out the =
rest.</div><div><br></div><div>Taylor</div><div><br></div></body></html>=

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