To: ZmnSCPxj <ZmnSCPxj@protonmail.com>
References: <IAFPSZAn6TYt348fmmnPznQ_ApG7pa48eMjzTgrjuVAt6fS1tNieRxlcIXyTATy2vjZCUn4wVQcsyDlyb_3Ip46BstFRikB95-lKewAZBEE=@protonmail.com>
	<d1cfa2e9-69e4-ee02-4c10-23b2b1a30e00@gmail.com>
	<TF9WSGU6njZqgOyJF5-m1gYMwfgUCStjUV-IpRuX67w1Z6jL2Tdarr6PCOUO1vFb9hz_jWnbe_5Tg8E_a9iyPeXIY_iJUf9YN8u9xB4SC90=@protonmail.com>
	<392367fe-b1d7-7d47-01de-ebb4b7142ead@gmail.com>
	<GkSgHQYXGen75-KP_N2VbK1EmY5DSDe0sncJBU77l6_2xdYhh9Yw5rQSgtPuwXJnMlnA0j195hkMfhnxhGkMERa3kXXW6KvR5qt88oSNGvY=@protonmail.com>
From: Aymeric Vitte <vitteaymeric@gmail.com>
Openpgp: preference=signencrypt
Autocrypt: addr=vitteaymeric@gmail.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata=
	mQINBFdW8uABEAC7HJScbB2d/lmYoY5Cn9loEjJwfLs1LC3om030bWFGiH3Ceo5XeHUT94rw
	Pi+HaHU8ea94425SXIFsnqp/ouoT/8Ffn6vED0OoRmK0jE4fqDApXSpoL2mHX9PAGdUItMtD
	YrxBiBZNfMkctEsm4NrQ4TCvB3Yrm6Fc69inXJjUoYgPw5tHafEeI8Qwh0j99JZZDKcAqIra
	JF3MPc59rATz0qOJtRP9EpsPVFwjJe13zN6CHILwiVgrL8EtT5WKCVO6ATxh60LHi8+MwPxV
	V31zp/NNI5Hck+XocEMO98ZvUu9X8ZxmnOk/+9pBxXEwUqSGUNWdmPJLncpI23Usce3u/MOo
	M2C4T4rD4J0XrXiyBvbeTvwq4qVNlyggeWzlBH+YpEYgDctPq4gNh4eoTtAkf8URtBeke5bQ
	CGdaZt/jxv8nvmxs9V/iSyg5ldJLQktHStXOo0OZ7FEB2C6Ggtymm4hm2MHYg07Q1MGJrFLa
	oJZkJ3JeXnVsZMam7ypQtld6rRa96CvH+llXwux6aQ5hKdzmBBMQ10LlkZhkExgTawbeqdiG
	RMP2DjD5go6TPdAHS4NN34SBkrTWLqgWOjN/lnG77bbLnpMl0P+xBTuqw1oSXaDbcdHE2nGY
	lRno/ZZIfr+1Bq56DZLBX/WpnAT4f5WtofL4CxQM9SbG6byyewARAQABtCJBeW1lcmljIFZp
	dHRlIDxheW1lcmljQHBlZXJzbS5jb20+iQI/BBMBCAApBQJXVvLgAhsjBQkJZgGABwsJCAcD
	AgEGFQgCCQoLBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQKh17NCYnrDm3WhAAlYmgtSmtfqjBvQMqkmtqiQJA
	aZkzFZWt6+zroduHH5/Tp8jh73gFqCUyRrl/kcKvs2+XQhfrOwk1R6OScF25bpnrZSeuyJnZ
	MZu4T0P2tGS8YdddQvWUHMtI9ZnQRuYmuZT23/hgj1JnukuGvGLeY0yDUa1xFffPN39shp5X
	FPMcpIVOV3bs+xjAdsyfRyO3qJAD1FGiR7ggJeoaxUbKZ6NtcVUPPRMjVTKfopkuDwKY318m
	BE0epfxSZ/iRhsJ0/sREUWgbgq4/QvCFwBKzgz7fTikGmf8OELWSdofmXs7gOtmMc3el8fJu
	W8PVa/OsIQHDmwSzvxmE8ba5M8bdwOYEraTWFArIymAAtRXKxmuYpkqKfeSlbCwae3W+pgNT
	8nKYRVAFlMtIxYkmPYyMTk9kCscmSqugGWbWdnqe/dhVaa31xa1qO1tDH24D2/tjCJRQt4Jk
	AEWNSmjCmjfeArMEFTGlZwMTAjVXErLSPbLOsZiZhD9sjvSbfzrtJiMli2h9+Dvds+AJk1PM
	O8LW7cCNyFoCk4OdAxzJHobZ25G+uy4NSQEHgxLC2iuh/tugz1tOHnQczPc/3AkVVI9A5DF1
	gbVRBJh6rI7sAcwuR76uoOs0Rpp7r6I66xqU/5eq8g1OsJp89tw0ppSIa0YmaxNqQZ0l3rVX
	o/ZwpBjtNQS5Ag0EV1by4AEQANhlz3Ywff4dY1HTdn05v0wVUxZzW2PUih+96m6EhpUrD9BT
	vxriKtbgxm/zl+5YAlThbrk9f0QyVTHJ95Z1/M5qjuksP9Zn3qZ/8ylANDkN2s3z8Bq/LJA+
	u7+APhMqyFWK0FqNCOogClvijiKPEzkU6tmDGO6wZ5pR/u8Fdq7DGQgwgyGZZc7qstte0M7l
	yx7bVRlPBqvd6kyX3YubQHzkctf46nFjiYZgKawdWFsA3PCdSBupbhixL5d/t1UK9ZTiQJcf
	0uhHzT06qwolFrm/ugkLDHtE4Zo3BuKch47Sms8P2hJ08gABxeJHg0ZgkIUy/Xf4nHbDCBJw
	T8tE8pWYWA2ECiPNo0TOCMVOueEzISUNKINfCuFHSbMQU39hgt3ofxODbAjOiO3e/iu1ptck
	AkuVBdtjOBP4tHRGxVrbf5EuAV5U5xtiSxMwMgojg0GIXZjnT/8uvWqcLqtJILRMmmu+WNvD
	oxuiJzcTJhDai9oujmxQwcpMvgrBB89KSTDyitO5XVjZqaR7Zxvvn3rM4bAms/lotv9+pTyh
	spazTIxb80u0ifJ6y1RxAkxQCfWwps1i3VbsM6OKX78aUyOf5V4ihXF57M37tOqPRwFvz6a+
	AIIhUNMTLo2H+o6Vw9qbX8SUxPHPs6YpJ8lWQJ9OMWHE+SbaDFAi/D5hYRubABEBAAGJAiUE
	GAEIAA8FAldW8uACGwwFCQlmAYAACgkQKh17NCYnrDmk4Q/9Fuu0h5HvIiO3ieYA2StdE7hO
	vv2THuesjJDsj6aQUTgknaxKptJogNe3dDyIT+FHxXmCw0Nrbm9Q3ryl80z/G9utfFNO3Gwc
	q31QW3n3LJHnpqdrV3WsRzT5NwJMVtiIAGRrX8ZomtarWHT0PeEHC2xBdFzRrJtmkrwer0Wc
	0nBzD7vk1XEXC9nODbmlgsesoHFgRwQBst3wClCbX1gv8aSfxQNpaf9UBC8DmyrQ621UXpBo
	PvcFEtWxV44vJfP0WOLCCN0Pzv2F2I66iKo7VMqbr5jlNAXJN9I1hXb7qwYJmBC9j5oeEoqv
	A9d44WWpxrdAr8qih4Nv89k9+9F6NoqORY3FGuVDKiW8CVhCmGT7bIvNeyicVBZFipXqPcKL
	VFduO2c5Ubc2npMWLUF1k9JJc9tH75l3+F/0RbYVTzGAZ+zSaudwR6h8YiCN2DBZGZkJEZbh
	3X/l6jtijMN/W9sPHyyKvm/TmeEC27S3TqZPZ8PUQLxZC70V6gMbenh01JdSQsn5t8Ru0RNh
	Blt0g7IyZyIKCE9b+TyzbYpX6qgqEBUHia5b0vyPtQacWQlZ8uqnghAqNkLluEsy7Q/7xG6M
	wXUYEDsFOmB9dKOzcAOIhpxlVjSKu5mzXJ11sEtE8nyF5NJ/riCA7FGcjlki3zIpzQUNo9v7
	vXl2h6Tivlk=
Message-ID: <99bab1a0-ac84-7064-08fe-5836f5b2caab@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2019 18:28:27 +0200
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101
	Thunderbird/60.6.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <GkSgHQYXGen75-KP_N2VbK1EmY5DSDe0sncJBU77l6_2xdYhh9Yw5rQSgtPuwXJnMlnA0j195hkMfhnxhGkMERa3kXXW6KvR5qt88oSNGvY=@protonmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Content-Language: fr
Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Smart Contracts Unchained
Precedence: list

Hi,

I took the example of colored coins because you quoted ethereum and like
most of ethereum tokens most of them reflect something coming from
nowhere, worse I can send you 10K Tethers if you like that of course
will not be validated by the central system but will be recorded in
bitcoin blockchain

Bitcoin oulasting ethereum, maybe, but the bitcoin community must make
more efforts to explain things, like "both were obvious" below is not in
fact for an usual reader, so a few more words would be good indeed

For me a sidechain does not have to be a blockchain but a decentralized
system allowing to secure off chain transactions until the final state
is stored into the blockchain, I don't see the use of storing forever
the intermediate states neither why the sidechain should be a
blockchain, if not then the sidechain would just be another
bitcoin/ethereum, no? What would be the purpose of building a blockchain
on top of another one? Just do your own, and this would eliminate the
drawback of needing to have bitcoins or ethers to smart contract things
that have nothing to do with them, as well as mixing addresses between
the blockchain and the sidechains

Regards

Aymeric

Le 08/04/2019 à 12:45, ZmnSCPxj a écrit :
> Good morning Aymeric,
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Apparently you are not a fan of ethereum, as far as I can tell ethereum
>> sidechains look like a mess with stupid tokens/transactions flooding the
>> network while they are completely centralized, but some bitcoin
>> sidechains can easily compete with this too, like Tether, don't even
>> understand how anyone can give some credit to that stuff the way it is
>> implemented, and if bitcoin fails that would be the same as for ethereum
> I prefer to be more precise in my terminology.
> Colored coins are not the same as sidechains, and there are colored coins and then there are colored coins.
> This mechanism does not propose some change in colored coins.
> An important aspect of colored coins is that one can foist them on somebody else to extract things of real value from them, but this mechanism is more strongly for a fixed set of participants.
>
> I strongly suspect that Bitcoin will outlast Ethereum, but that is rather not very related to this topic.
>
>> Most likely everyone would agree if the escrow disappears, but not sure
>> at all, let's imagine 1 to N put 10K on the table for a game, they
>> update the states and at the end N wins everything, N is rich and don't
>> care finally if the others cheaters have their coins locked (and to lose
>> 10K), same with setting up a new escrow to resolve the conflict
>>
> Indeed.
> Still, the option to do so exists, and sometimes all that is needed for humans to do the right thing, is to be given the option to do so.
>
>> I think that you should highlight this (and what private key corresponds
>> to E + h(E | s) * G, not sure it's trivial for everybody), probably a
>> way to get this more decentralized is to reward the escrows (what is the
>> interest here for people to run a smart contract platform?)
> I assumed both were obvious, but I suppose a few more words about those would not be amiss.
>
>> For lightning, maybe it's a question of wording, I consider it as a
>> sidechain AND methods that can be used by other sidechains, as well as
>> the others you quoted, even if only two people in the world use
>> lightning, it is still decentralized, because it sustains itself alone
> Again, I prefer precision in my terminology.
> For me, a sidechain is a blockchain of some sort.
> In particular, a kind of Merklized singly-linked list containing representations of transformations of state, is how I define blockchain to be.
>
> No such Merklized singly-linked list exists in Lightning Network, thus I do not consider it, "blockchain".
> And thus I do not consider it "sidechain", as a sidechain is a blockchain.
> Current LN does use "shachains" by Rusty, but shachains are not Merklized singly-linked lists, but are instead a kind of inverse mountain range structure.
>
> Still, one might consider both federated sidechains and Lightning Network to have a "federated" offchain structure.
> This is because the coins on the Bitcoin blockchain are locked to a multisignature and activity is not recorded on the Bitcoin blockchain.
> However, in LN, each channel is a 2-member federation (you and a counterparty) and the mechanism in LN requires consensus (2-of-2) rather than a quorum (m-of-n).
> This greatly increases the security of LN: the owner of funding on an LN channel can always refuse to sign an update if the other member of the federation is taken over.
> Compare this to the quorum that typical federations have, where takeover of a sufficient quorum is enough to steal funds from the remaining federation.
> https://zmnscpxj.github.io/offchain/safety.html
>
> Regards,
> ZmnSCPxj