Received: from sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.192] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-1.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1WNAYn-0008VR-Mz for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Tue, 11 Mar 2014 00:28:45 +0000 X-ACL-Warn: Received: from serv.jerviss.org ([12.47.47.47] helo=inana.jerviss.org) by sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.76) id 1WNAYj-0005tC-JT for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Tue, 11 Mar 2014 00:28:45 +0000 Received: from [10.8.2.254] ([192.151.168.151]) (username: kjj authenticated by PLAIN symmetric_key_bits=0) by inana.jerviss.org (8.13.6/8.12.11) with ESMTP id s2B04Fo9026511 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Mon, 10 Mar 2014 19:04:20 -0500 Message-ID: <531E52FE.5090107@jerviss.org> Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 19:04:14 -0500 From: kjj User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.2; WOW64; rv:27.0) Gecko/20100101 SeaMonkey/2.24 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alan Reiner References: <531DFDF8.80008@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <531DFDF8.80008@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------010104070008020906040303" Received-SPF: pass (inana.jerviss.org: 192.151.168.151 is authenticated by a trusted mechanism) X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain -0.0 T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD Envelope sender domain matches handover relay domain 1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message X-Headers-End: 1WNAYj-0005tC-JT Cc: Bitcoin Dev Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Multisign payment protocol? X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 00:28:45 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------010104070008020906040303 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was trying to use bip10 for multisig and coinjoin, but there was a problem with it. I'll have to look back at my notes, but I thought I sent you a message about it. And then real life swallowed my bitcoin time... I think the bottom line was that it would be useful in the generic case with just one minor change. If there is interest, and it sounds like there just may be, I can dust off my notes and see where I left it. Probably should do it soon before someone implements it in PB or XML. Alan Reiner wrote: > Then of course I tried to do this with BIP 10 > when > Armory implemented offline-transactions two years ago. I got some > positive feedback, but no one wanted to help improve it, etc. I guess > nobody else was doing it and/or cared at the time. So I continue to > use BIP 10 even though it's pretty crappy. I wanted it to be useful > for multisig, too, but it has some deficiencies there (it was done > when Armory was extremely young and OP_EVAL was still on the table). > > However, with all this activity, we should start thinking about that > and discussing it. Otherwise, I'll just do my own thing again and > probably end up with something that fits my own needs, but not anyone > else's. Really though, multisig shouldn't require all the same app to > work. > > -Alan > > > On 03/10/2014 01:49 PM, Gavin Andresen wrote: >> In my experience, best process for standardizing something is: >> >> 1) Somebody has a great idea >> 2) They implement it >> 3) Everybody agrees, "Great idea!" and they copy it. >> 4) Idea gets refined by the people copying it. >> 5) It gets standardized. >> >> Mutisig wallets are at step 2 right now. BIP is step 5, in my humble >> opinion... >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 1:39 PM, Drak > > wrote: >> >> I was wondering if there would be merit in a kind of BIP for a >> payment protocol using multisig? >> >> Currently, setting up a multisig is quite a feat. Users have to >> exchange public keys, work out how to get the public keys from >> their addresses. If one of the parties are not savvy enough, an >> malicious party could easily be setup that was 2 of 3 instead of >> 2 of 2 where the malicious party generates the multisig >> address+script and thus be able to run off with funds anyway. >> >> It's also terribly complex to generate and keep track of. There's >> been a nice attempt at creating an browser interface at >> coinb.in/multisig but it still lacks >> the kind of ease with created by the payment protocol. If there >> was a BIP then it would go a long way to aiding future usability >> of multisig wallet implementations. >> >> What are your thoughts? >> >> Drak >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book >> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases >> and their >> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, >> this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech >> _______________________________________________ >> Bitcoin-development mailing list >> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net >> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development >> >> >> >> >> -- >> -- >> Gavin Andresen >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book >> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their >> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, >> this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Bitcoin-development mailing list >> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book > "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their > applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, > this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! > http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech > > > _______________________________________________ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development --------------010104070008020906040303 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by inana.jerviss.org id s2B04Fo9026511
I was trying to use bip10 for multisig and coinjoin, but there was a problem with it.=A0 I'll have to look back at my notes, but I thought I sent you a message about it.=A0 And then real life swallowed my bitcoin time...

I think the bottom line was that it would be useful in the generic case with just one minor change.=A0 If there is interest, and it sounds like there just may be, I can dust off my notes and see where I left it.=A0 Probably should do it soon before someone implements it in PB or XML.

Alan Reiner wrote:
Then of course I tried to do this with B= IP 10=A0 when Armory implemented offline-transactions two years ago.=A0 I got some positive feedback, but no one wanted to help improve it, etc.=A0 I guess nobody else was doing it and/or cared a= t the time.=A0 So I continue to use BIP 10 even though it's pretty crappy.=A0 I wanted it to be useful for multisig, too, but it has some deficiencies there (it was done when Armory was extremely young and OP_EVAL was still on the table).

However, with all this activity, we should start thinking about that and discussing it.=A0 Otherwise, I'll just do my own thing again and probably end up with something that fits my own needs, but not anyone else's.=A0 Really though, multisig shouldn't require all the same app to work.

-Alan


On 03/10/2014 01:49 PM, Gavin Andresen wrote:
In my experience, best process for standardizing something is:

1) Somebody has a great idea
2) They implement it
3) Everybody agrees, "Great idea!" and they copy it.
4) Idea gets refined by the people copying it.
5) It gets standardized.

Mutisig wallets are at step 2 right now. BIP is step 5, in my humble opinion...




On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 1:39 PM, Dra= k <drak@zi= kula.org> wrote:
I was wondering if there would be merit in a kind of BIP for a payment protocol using multisig?

Currently, setting up a multisig is quite a feat. Users have to exchange public keys, work out how to get the public keys from their addresses. If one of the parties are not savvy enough, an malicious party could easily be setup that was 2 of 3 instead of 2 of 2 where the malicious party generates the multisig address+script and thus be able to run off with funds anyway.

It's also terribly complex to generate and keep track of. There's been a nice attempt at creating an browser interface at coinb.in/multisig but it still lacks the kind of ease with created by the payment protocol. If there was a BIP then it would go a long way to aiding future usability of multisig wallet implementations.

What are your thoughts?

Drak

-------------------------------------------------------------------------= -----
Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
"Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their
applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech
_______________________________________________
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/lis= tinfo/bitcoin-development




--
--
Gavin Andresen


--------------------------------------------------=
----------------------------
Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
"Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and thei=
r
applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech


_______________________________________________
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists=
.sourceforge.net
https://list=
s.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development




----------------------------------------------------=
--------------------------
Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
"Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and thei=
r
applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech


_______________________________________________
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/l=
istinfo/bitcoin-development

--------------010104070008020906040303--