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From: Jeremy <jlrubin@mit.edu>
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2021 11:39:44 -0700
Message-ID: <CAD5xwhimPBEV_tLpSPxs9B+XGUhvPx_dnhok=8=hyksyi4=B6g@mail.gmail.com>
To: "David A. Harding" <dave@dtrt.org>
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Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] CHECKSIGFROMSTACK/{Verify} BIP for Bitcoin
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>
> Do you have concerns about sophisticated covenants, and if so, would you
> mind describing them?


Personally, not in particular worried about arbitrary covenants as I think
that: 1 validation costs can be kept in check; 2 you're free to burn your
coins it you want to.

I *do* care that when we enable covenants we don't make people jump through
too many hoops, but I also respect Russel's points that we can enable
functionality and then later figure out how to make it more efficient or
useful guided by use cases.


However, I think the broader community is unconvinced by the cost benefit
of arbitrary covenants. See
https://medium.com/block-digest-mempool/my-worries-about-too-generalized-covenants-5eff33affbb6
as a recent example. Therefore as a critical part of building consensus on
various techniques I've worked to emphasize that specific additions do not
entail risk of accidentally introducing more than was bargained for to
respect the concerns of others.


>
> I'm a fan of CSFS, even mentioning it on zndtoshi's recent survey[2],
> but it seems artificially limited without OP_CAT.  (I also stand by my
> answer on that survey of believing there's a deep lack of developer
> interest in CSFS at the moment.  But, if you'd like to tilt at that
> windmill, I won't stop you.)


Well if you're a fan of it, I'm a fan of it, Russel's a fan of it, and
Sanket's a fan of it that sounds like a good amount of dev interest :) I
know Olaoluwa is also a fan of it too and has some cool L2 protocols using
it.

I think it might not be *hype* because it's been around a while and has
always been bundled with cat so been a non starter for the reasons above. I
think as an independent non-bundle it's exciting and acceptable to a number
of devs. I also believe upgrades can be developed and tracked in parallel
so I'm taking on the windmill tilting personally to spearhead that -- on
the shoulders of Giants who have been creating specs for this already of
course.

Best,

Jeremy

P.s. icymi https://rubin.io/blog/2021/07/02/covenants/ covers my current
thinking about how to proceed w.r.t. deploying and developing covenant
systems for bitcoin

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<div dir=3D"auto"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left=
:1ex">Do you have concerns about sophisticated covenants, and if so, would =
you<br>
mind describing them?=C2=A0</blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br><=
/div><div dir=3D"auto">Personally, not in particular worried about arbitrar=
y covenants as I think that: 1 validation costs can be kept in check; 2 you=
&#39;re free to burn your coins it you want to.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br>=
</div><div dir=3D"auto">I *do* care that when we enable covenants we don=
9;t make people jump through too many hoops, but I also respect Russel&#39;=
s points that we can enable functionality and then later figure out how to =
make it more efficient or useful guided by use cases.</div><div dir=3D"auto=
"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">However, I think =
the broader community is unconvinced by the cost benefit of arbitrary coven=
ants. See=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://medium.com/block-digest-mempool/my-worrie=
s-about-too-generalized-covenants-5eff33affbb6">https://medium.com/block-di=
gest-mempool/my-worries-about-too-generalized-covenants-5eff33affbb6</a> as=
 a recent example. Therefore as a critical part of building consensus on va=
rious techniques I&#39;ve worked to emphasize that specific additions do no=
t entail risk of accidentally introducing more than was bargained for to re=
spect the concerns of others.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"=
auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
<br>
I&#39;m a fan of CSFS, even mentioning it on zndtoshi&#39;s recent survey[2=
],<br>
but it seems artificially limited without OP_CAT.=C2=A0 (I also stand by my=
<br>
answer on that survey of believing there&#39;s a deep lack of developer<br>
interest in CSFS at the moment.=C2=A0 But, if you&#39;d like to tilt at tha=
t<br>
windmill, I won&#39;t stop you.)</blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"auto">=
<br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Well if you&#39;re a fan of it, I&#39;m a fan o=
f it, Russel&#39;s a fan of it, and Sanket&#39;s a fan of it that sounds li=
ke a good amount of dev interest :) I know Olaoluwa is also a fan of it too=
 and has some cool L2 protocols using it.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br>=
</div><div dir=3D"auto">I think it might not be *hype* because it&#39;s bee=
n around a while and has always been bundled with cat so been a non starter=
 for the reasons above. I think as an independent non-bundle it&#39;s excit=
ing and acceptable to a number of devs. I also believe upgrades can be deve=
loped and tracked in parallel so I&#39;m taking on the windmill tilting per=
sonally to spearhead that -- on the shoulders of Giants who have been creat=
ing specs for this already of course.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></di=
v><div dir=3D"auto">Best,</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto=
">Jeremy</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">P.s. icymi <a h=
ref=3D"https://rubin.io/blog/2021/07/02/covenants/">https://rubin.io/blog/2=
021/07/02/covenants/</a> covers my current thinking about how to proceed w.=
r.t. deploying and developing covenant systems for bitcoin</div><div dir=3D=
"auto"></div></div>

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