Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 87FB21030 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 2018 14:52:43 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-ua0-f176.google.com (mail-ua0-f176.google.com [209.85.217.176]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48BE144D for ; Mon, 8 Jan 2018 14:52:42 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-ua0-f176.google.com with SMTP id x10so6973730ual.8 for ; Mon, 08 Jan 2018 06:52:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=MkrAOlWInOmUOdkpRpEyT9w0mRwQW3bUG7EL+EK7Rlw=; b=VnEgRFsva7RDvPII2G37MvG2gkaeWPRnOOkzmyi+TKlZ/XPMK/JdJ0CZ3VS/etoYy8 FZwYwsyhb+8Lhe8n5qX91kKDLDanxsaie5K2x4ZBGabmAoXQSJ0HOpKCTRbw/7D5DEuG dTTb1XebpWSeXZkzn8b9CmTNopF25CWtUcYczA+3bz8UrRTHfMbB3DELkLexodIAE2sa Vkh7ky+I321PVmIZbVfTh0HHygl1Pj1oqPLbWYQ0zyWpocjx8dBrNPH6y2h3OsgIAUIV Or0NLPmX/QFWqPRN6X0TkuAGkP6E4deAB96SBWjSkDxpvGW/NdH44CYkRlUhhcdtgQq6 aT7Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=MkrAOlWInOmUOdkpRpEyT9w0mRwQW3bUG7EL+EK7Rlw=; b=jhBft1rD3V21Cl4mR4LYQSHsIktVrmJrhuaDmwU7Wzlkep/XxsQc9nOPfoCa0fcsEN t/zBb0gg54wxF9+uS1p+x8XZ1wqtbS+P+wtGrwG5N4biyyHR75TccfmN5W+Z4F7EIE8R /dD90zKo1/hTIH+XZSja9K2G2BKZwvyutMLdqIF9u5K8JsTjRT2b+UV96E11/mEmAZc2 wqHdOuXmq/uElAb1OT0KPn2G2QOZ3zwWvYqiUAh4jyYfSm5g74iXNEhX4C097ZqKUJxC KO2/B+Km0gxB50zeODA8A6rOBRBaHBfqNwzbVysFJovdbNQWdEswujz4L6mYQpgOG8qU gOug== X-Gm-Message-State: AKwxyteymnNHRbSKHSqoYqa6Quh98bQXMK33B9QaRoRFPExDfqSxMpof BKXoVm58rM/O88jU0zZjKeTuPZh4/rhlFbsj X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBovva/KbdoyxLqQ+A+yJLXU4Y0bIgySTkeGjwfhNGfjxTCrI2HZ5e1Qm7+z8edqeYzNRrJSFbM3j1sGjjVVfnEk= X-Received: by 10.159.56.78 with SMTP id q14mr12434225uad.114.1515423161233; Mon, 08 Jan 2018 06:52:41 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.103.72.203 with HTTP; Mon, 8 Jan 2018 06:52:20 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <57f5fcd8644c6f6472cd6a91144a6152@nym.zone> From: Matias Alejo Garcia Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2018 11:52:20 -0300 Message-ID: To: Greg Sanders , Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a11465fea35b4ea056244f3b6" X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.3 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU, FREEMAIL_FROM, HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, URIBL_BLACK autolearn=no version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 08 Jan 2018 15:11:42 +0000 Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP 39: Add language identifier strings for wordlists X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2018 14:52:43 -0000 --001a11465fea35b4ea056244f3b6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 11:34 AM, Greg Sanders via bitcoin-dev < bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > Has anyone actually used the multilingual support in bip39? > Copay (and all its clones) use it. > > If a feature of the standard has not been(widely?) used in years, and > isn't supported in any major wallet(?), it seems indicative it was a > mistake to add it in the first place, since it's a footgun in the making > for some poor sap who can't even read English letters when almost all > documentation is written in English. > > On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 6:13 AM, nullius via bitcoin-dev < > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > >> On 2018-01-08 at 07:35:52 +0000, =E6=9C=A8=E3=83=8E=E4=B8=8B=E3=81=98=E3= =82=87=E3=81=AA wrote: >> >>> This is very sad. >>> >>> The number one problem in Japan with BIP39 seeds is with English words. >>> >>> I have seen a 60 year old Japanese man writing down his phrase (because >>> he kept on failing recovery), and watched him write down "aneter" for >>> "amateur"... >>> >>> [...] >>> >>> If you understand English and can spell, you read a word, your brain >>> processes the word, and you can spell it on your own when writing down. >>> Not many Japanese people can do that, so they need to copy letter for >>> letter, taking a long time, and still messing up on occasion. >>> >>> [...] >>> >>> Defining "everyone should only use English, because ASCII is easier to >>> plan for" is not a good way to move forward as a currency. >>> >> >> Well said. Thank you for telling of these experiences. Now please, >> let=E2=80=99s put the shoe on the other foot. >> >> I ask everybody who wants an English-only mnemonic standard to entrust >> *their own money* to their abilities to very, very carefully write this >> down=E2=80=94then later, type it back in: >> >> =E3=81=99=E3=81=95=E3=82=93 =E3=81=9F=E3=82=93=E3=82=8D =E3=82=8A=E3=82= =86=E3=81=86 =E3=81=97=E3=82=82=E3=82=93 =E3=81=A6=E3=81=84=E3=81=8A=E3=82= =93 =E3=81=97=E3=81=A8=E3=81=86 >> =E3=81=A8=E3=81=93=E3=82=84 =E3=81=AF=E3=82=84=E3=81=84 =E3=81=8A=E3=81= =86=E3=81=95=E3=81=BE =E3=81=BB=E3=81=8F=E3=82=8D =E3=81=91=E3=81=A1=E3=82= =83=E3=81=A3=E3=81=B5 =E3=81=9F=E3=82=82=E3=81=A4 >> >> (Approximate translation: =E2=80=9CWhatever would you do if Bitcoin had= been >> invented by somebody named Satoshi Nakamoto?=E2=80=9D) >> >> No, wait: That is only a 12-word mnemonic. We are probably talking >> about a Trezor; so now, hey you there, stake the backup of your life=E2= =80=99s >> savings on your ability to handwrite *this*: >> >> =E3=81=AB=E3=81=82=E3=81=86 =E3=81=97=E3=81=B2=E3=82=87=E3=81=86 =E3=81= =AB=E3=82=93=E3=81=99=E3=81=86 =E3=81=B2=E3=81=88=E3=82=8B =E3=81=8B=E3=81= =84=E3=81=93=E3=81=86 =E3=81=84=E3=81=AE=E3=82=8B =E3=81=AD=E3=82=93=E3=81= =97 =E3=81=AF=E3=81=82=E3=81=95=E3=82=93 =E3=81=B2=E3=81=93=E3=81=8F >> =E3=81=A8=E3=81=86=E3=81=8F =E3=81=8D=E3=82=82=E3=81=9F=E3=82=81=E3=81= =97 =E3=81=9D=E3=81=AA=E3=81=9F =E3=81=93=E3=81=AA=E3=81=93=E3=81=AA =E3=81= =AB=E3=81=95=E3=82=93=E3=81=8B=E3=81=9F=E3=82=93=E3=81=9D =E3=82=8D=E3=82= =93=E3=81=8D =E3=82=81=E3=81=84=E3=81=82=E3=82=93 =E3=81=BF=E3=82=8F=E3=81= =8F >> =E3=81=B8=E3=81=93=E3=82=80 =E3=81=99=E3=81=B2=E3=82=87=E3=81=86 =E3=81= =8A=E3=82=84=E3=82=86=E3=81=B2 =E3=81=B5=E3=81=9B=E3=81=8F =E3=81=91=E3=81= =95=E3=81=8D =E3=82=81=E3=81=84=E3=81=8D=E3=82=87=E3=81=8F =E3=81=93=E3=82= =93=E3=81=BE=E3=81=91 >> >> Ready to bet your money on *that* as a backup phrase in your own hands? >> No? Then please, stop demanding that others risk *their* money on the >> inverse case. >> >> ---- >> >> If you cheat here by having studied Japanese, then remember that many >> Japanese people know English and other European languages, too. Then th= ink >> of how much money would be lost by your non-Japanese-literate family and >> friends=E2=80=94if BIP 39 had only Japanese wordlists, and your folks ne= eded to >> wrestle with the above phrases as their =E2=80=9Cmnemonics=E2=80=9D. >> >> In such cases, the phrases cannot be called =E2=80=9Cmnemonics=E2=80=9D = at all. A >> =E2=80=9Cmnemonic=E2=80=9D implies aid to memory. Gibberish in a wholly= alien writing >> system is much worse even than transcribing pseudorandom hex strings. T= he >> Japanese man in the quoted story, who wrote =E2=80=9Caneter=E2=80=9D for= =E2=80=9Camateur=E2=80=9D, was not >> dealing with a *mnemonic*: He was using the world=E2=80=99s most ineffi= cient means >> of making cryptic bitstrings *less* userfriendly. >> >> ---- >> >> I began this thread with a quite simple request: Is =E2=80=9C=E6=97=A5= =E6=9C=AC=E8=AA=9E=E2=80=9D an appropriate >> string for identifying the Japanese language to Japanese users? And wha= t >> of the other strings I posted for other languages? >> >> I asked this as an implementer working on my own instance of the greates= t >> guard against vendor lock-in and stale software: Independent >> implementations. =E2=80=94 I asked, because obviously, I myself do not= speak all >> these different languages; and I want to implement them all. *All.* >> >> Some replies have been interesting in their own right; but thus far, >> nobody has squarely addressed the substance of my question. >> >> Most worrisome is that much of the discussion has veered into criticism >> of multi-language support. I opened with a question about other languag= es, >> and I am getting replies which raise a hue and cry of =E2=80=9CEnglish o= nly!=E2=80=9D >> >> Though I am fluent and literate in English, I am uninterested in ever >> implementing any standard of this nature which is artificially restricte= d >> to English. I am fortunate; for as of this moment, we have a standard >> called =E2=80=9CBIP 39=E2=80=9D which has seven non-English wordlists, a= nd four more >> pending in open pull requests (#432, #442, #493, #621). >> >> I request discussion of language identification strings appropriate for >> use with that standard. >> >> (P.S., I hope that my system did not mangle anything in the foregoing. = I >> have seen weird copypaste behaviour mess up decomposed characters. I >> thought of this after I searched for and collected some visually >> fascinating phrases; so I tried to normalize these to NFC... It should = go >> without saying, easyseed output the Japanese perfectly!) >> >> >> -- >> nullius@nym.zone | PGP ECC: 0xC2E91CD74A4C57A105F6C21B5A00591B2F307E0C >> Bitcoin: bc1qcash96s5jqppzsp8hy8swkggf7f6agex98an7h | (Segwit nested: >> 3NULL3ZCUXr7RDLxXeLPDMZDZYxuaYkCnG) (PGP RSA: 0x36EBB4AB699A10EE) >> =E2=80=9C=E2=80=98If you=E2=80=99re not doing anything wrong, you have n= othing to hide.=E2=80=99 >> No! Because I do nothing wrong, I have nothing to show.=E2=80=9D =E2=80= =94 nullius >> >> _______________________________________________ >> bitcoin-dev mailing list >> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org >> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > > --=20 Mat=C3=ADas Alejo Garcia @ematiu Roads? Where we're going, we don't need roads! --001a11465fea35b4ea056244f3b6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 11:34 AM, Greg Sanders via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
Has anyone actually u= sed the multilingual support in bip39?

Copay (and all its clones) use it.=C2=A0



=C2=A0

If a featur= e of the standard has not been(widely?) used in years, and isn't suppor= ted in any major wallet(?), it seems indicative it was a mistake to add it = in the first place, since it's a footgun in the making for some poor sa= p who can't even read English letters when almost all documentation is = written in English.

On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 6:13 AM, nulliu= s via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundat= ion.org> wrote:
On 2018-01-08 at 07:35:52 +0000, =E6=9C=A8=E3= =83=8E=E4=B8=8B=E3=81=98=E3=82=87=E3=81=AA <kinoshitajona@gmail.com> wrote:
This is very sad.

The number one problem in Japan with BIP39 seeds is with English words.

I have seen a 60 year old Japanese man writing down his phrase (because he = kept on failing recovery), and watched him write down "aneter" fo= r "amateur"...

 [...]

If you understand English and can spell, you read a word, your brain proces= ses the word, and you can spell it on your own when writing down.=C2=A0 Not= many Japanese people can do that, so they need to copy letter for letter, = taking a long time, and still messing up on occasion.

 [...]

Defining "everyone should only use English, because ASCII is easier to= plan for" is not a good way to move forward as a currency.

Well said.=C2=A0 Thank you for telling of these experiences.=C2=A0 Now plea= se, let=E2=80=99s put the shoe on the other foot.

I ask everybody who wants an English-only mnemonic standard to entrust *the= ir own money* to their abilities to very, very carefully write this down=E2= =80=94then later, type it back in:

=E3=81=99=E3=81=95=E3=82=93=E3=80=80=E3=81=9F=E3=82=93=E3=82=8D=E3=80=80=E3= =82=8A=E3=82=86=E3=81=86=E3=80=80=E3=81=97=E3=82=82=E3=82=93=E3=80=80=E3=81= =A6=E3=81=84=E3=81=8A=E3=82=93=E3=80=80=E3=81=97=E3=81=A8=E3=81=86
=E3=81=A8=E3=81=93=E3=82=84=E3=80=80=E3=81=AF=E3=82=84=E3=81=84=E3=80=80=E3= =81=8A=E3=81=86=E3=81=95=E3=81=BE=E3=80=80=E3=81=BB=E3=81=8F=E3=82=8D=E3=80= =80=E3=81=91=E3=81=A1=E3=82=83=E3=81=A3=E3=81=B5=E3=80=80=E3=81=9F=E3=82=82= =E3=81=A4

(Approximate translation:=C2=A0 =E2=80=9CWhatever would you do if Bitcoin h= ad been invented by somebody named Satoshi Nakamoto?=E2=80=9D)

No, wait:=C2=A0 That is only a 12-word mnemonic.=C2=A0 We are probably talk= ing about a Trezor; so now, hey you there, stake the backup of your life=E2= =80=99s savings on your ability to handwrite *this*:

=E3=81=AB=E3=81=82=E3=81=86=E3=80=80=E3=81=97=E3=81=B2=E3=82=87=E3=81=86=E3= =80=80=E3=81=AB=E3=82=93=E3=81=99=E3=81=86=E3=80=80=E3=81=B2=E3=81=88=E3=82= =8B=E3=80=80=E3=81=8B=E3=81=84=E3=81=93=E3=81=86=E3=80=80=E3=81=84=E3=81=AE= =E3=82=8B=E3=80=80=E3=81=AD=E3=82=93=E3=81=97=E3=80=80=E3=81=AF=E3=81=82=E3= =81=95=E3=82=93=E3=80=80=E3=81=B2=E3=81=93=E3=81=8F
=E3=81=A8=E3=81=86=E3=81=8F=E3=80=80=E3=81=8D=E3=82=82=E3=81=9F=E3=82=81=E3= =81=97=E3=80=80=E3=81=9D=E3=81=AA=E3=81=9F=E3=80=80=E3=81=93=E3=81=AA=E3=81= =93=E3=81=AA=E3=80=80=E3=81=AB=E3=81=95=E3=82=93=E3=81=8B=E3=81=9F=E3=82=93= =E3=81=9D=E3=80=80=E3=82=8D=E3=82=93=E3=81=8D=E3=80=80=E3=82=81=E3=81=84=E3= =81=82=E3=82=93=E3=80=80=E3=81=BF=E3=82=8F=E3=81=8F
=E3=81=B8=E3=81=93=E3=82=80=E3=80=80=E3=81=99=E3=81=B2=E3=82=87=E3=81=86=E3= =80=80=E3=81=8A=E3=82=84=E3=82=86=E3=81=B2=E3=80=80=E3=81=B5=E3=81=9B=E3=81= =8F=E3=80=80=E3=81=91=E3=81=95=E3=81=8D=E3=80=80=E3=82=81=E3=81=84=E3=81=8D= =E3=82=87=E3=81=8F=E3=80=80=E3=81=93=E3=82=93=E3=81=BE=E3=81=91

Ready to bet your money on *that* as a backup phrase in your own hands?=C2= =A0 No?=C2=A0 Then please, stop demanding that others risk *their* money on= the inverse case.

----

If you cheat here by having studied Japanese, then remember that many Japan= ese people know English and other European languages, too.=C2=A0 Then think= of how much money would be lost by your non-Japanese-literate family and f= riends=E2=80=94if BIP 39 had only Japanese wordlists, and your folks needed= to wrestle with the above phrases as their =E2=80=9Cmnemonics=E2=80=9D.
In such cases, the phrases cannot be called =E2=80=9Cmnemonics=E2=80=9D at = all.=C2=A0 A =E2=80=9Cmnemonic=E2=80=9D implies aid to memory.=C2=A0 Gibber= ish in a wholly alien writing system is much worse even than transcribing p= seudorandom hex strings.=C2=A0 The Japanese man in the quoted story, who wr= ote =E2=80=9Caneter=E2=80=9D for =E2=80=9Camateur=E2=80=9D, was not dealing= with a *mnemonic*:=C2=A0 He was using the world=E2=80=99s most inefficient= means of making cryptic bitstrings *less* userfriendly.

----

I began this thread with a quite simple request:=C2=A0 Is =E2=80=9C=E6=97= =A5=E6=9C=AC=E8=AA=9E=E2=80=9D an appropriate string for identifying the Ja= panese language to Japanese users?=C2=A0 And what of the other strings I po= sted for other languages?

I asked this as an implementer working on my own instance of the greatest g= uard against vendor lock-in and stale software:=C2=A0 Independent implement= ations.=C2=A0 =E2=80=94=C2=A0 I asked, because obviously, I myself do not s= peak all these different languages; and I want to implement them all.=C2=A0= *All.*

Some replies have been interesting in their own right; but thus far, nobody= has squarely addressed the substance of my question.

Most worrisome is that much of the discussion has veered into criticism of = multi-language support.=C2=A0 I opened with a question about other language= s, and I am getting replies which raise a hue and cry of =E2=80=9CEnglish o= nly!=E2=80=9D

Though I am fluent and literate in English, I am uninterested in ever imple= menting any standard of this nature which is artificially restricted to Eng= lish.=C2=A0 I am fortunate; for as of this moment, we have a standard calle= d =E2=80=9CBIP 39=E2=80=9D which has seven non-English wordlists, and four = more pending in open pull requests (#432, #442, #493, #621).

I request discussion of language identification strings appropriate for use= with that standard.

(P.S., I hope that my system did not mangle anything in the foregoing.=C2= =A0 I have seen weird copypaste behaviour mess up decomposed characters.=C2= =A0 I thought of this after I searched for and collected some visually fasc= inating phrases; so I tried to normalize these to NFC...=C2=A0 It should go= without saying, easyseed output the Japanese perfectly!)


--
nullius@nym.zone | PGP ECC: 0xC2E91CD74A4C57A105F6C21B5A00591B2F307E0C=
Bitcoin: bc1qcash96s5jqppzsp8hy8swkggf7f6agex98an7h | (Segwit nested:<= br> 3NULL3ZCUXr7RDLxXeLPDMZDZYxuaYkCnG)=C2=A0 (PGP RSA: 0x36EBB4AB699A10EE= )
=E2=80=9C=E2=80=98If you=E2=80=99re not doing anything wrong, you have noth= ing to hide.=E2=80=99
No!=C2=A0 Because I do nothing wrong, I have nothing to show.=E2=80=9D =E2= =80=94 nullius

______________________________= _________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
= bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org= /mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev



_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
bitcoin-dev@lists.= linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org= /mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev




--
= Mat=C3=ADas Alejo Garcia
@ematiu
Roads? Where we're going, we don= 't need roads!
--001a11465fea35b4ea056244f3b6--