Return-Path: Received: from smtp3.osuosl.org (smtp3.osuosl.org [140.211.166.136]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AC1FC0011 for ; Thu, 24 Feb 2022 15:56:21 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp3.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25BF560746 for ; Thu, 24 Feb 2022 15:56:21 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: smtp3.osuosl.org (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from smtp3.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp3.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JpIyfp64HeV7 for ; Thu, 24 Feb 2022 15:56:17 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0 Received: from mail-ej1-x630.google.com (mail-ej1-x630.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::630]) by smtp3.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 55DAE607FE for ; Thu, 24 Feb 2022 15:56:17 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-ej1-x630.google.com with SMTP id a8so5296216ejc.8 for ; Thu, 24 Feb 2022 07:56:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ie0CGd96jBldoVfXFc9wseJTIhBFo4cR9e/DxNcIZ80=; b=G8i329ZTKkLLWSeVXiDR5vwDN0D4lxn+i8i2xd2JaBWFVsclM/62kr0C6N0xrw0Ftx X4HM4w+Y73fxHVBl6Dm88oTjLkYC8Zs7BwSz+++Gz6KWoy/BPgc7pe8z1hSygj8dwadL qHqvPCGzxfy2bX6EFADOJvol8oQSojruZYNN2+wHbtLVVmIfREUvr1HXw7VN9HdDVlOf rVEu3rvtZcoKMP4Sj4lPYC2ibx2jzdUHU0ruFDunHyhP30AXyyDxIvwImigG7CLgjByu sADRwqnRo9Td6V4sY9qEgrz6sxZlCLrytz88sptn7DSg9JfGLSBGd31mr2WD/hicyb83 2HfQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ie0CGd96jBldoVfXFc9wseJTIhBFo4cR9e/DxNcIZ80=; b=ip6oAFrn+nulVxuqszEoVWipRQZ/1c9JlwuLn5kZ7Fp51jG0Kkt3FvEMWRVK6aFqbQ QRKw6dApYeyHj+tqFwdfGdEUBite+b7tAn0vt93GcnThMNbdl7luGThsnO9xM5PT1+Ig 2F8B0dLuiUHn3bbDYSgnKBV1PAJtVR2MtJvhbJJG8sNXIirGiL5Y8KiU6VaLxs5S2OnE 2/zS6yc8viOhM9Gv7kLB5B7hjbn3cPLAIBlEWjbh2WPuh28fy9yLEUHnfim/nCJGsntb OCNHMqGRAiZ+0uGf79RQaHrD5NlbseERWYt5rE9zUmNOEjhpeBXcBs2OMSrLnP/U2IS6 GxYw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532V8BgOgKhTT+l8frisUMw4jQzufw4EU2KBIR92BMRIXivxMWTd s3YGv17/osvY35AQbEnZEwf5AUMUYXkw/GjZxqI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx6FJOGjm1Gf8qxzk3t/GL/1OEO8aLQjNLZOv5g4MDC9KfMc9TNYOwzs3ZYllpgi28uf2hE8c8qYIqipCVqX/w= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:130a:b0:6b7:5e48:350a with SMTP id w10-20020a170906130a00b006b75e48350amr2770869ejb.184.1645718175296; Thu, 24 Feb 2022 07:56:15 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0642a5e59464779569f9d0aab452ee27@willtech.com.au> <96471a093e3c3d9862c3d47ebe731df6@willtech.com.au> In-Reply-To: From: Billy Tetrud Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 09:55:57 -0600 Message-ID: To: damian@willtech.com.au, Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003d321205d8c59fea" X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 16:05:24 +0000 Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Draft-BIP: Ordinal Numbers X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 15:56:21 -0000 --0000000000003d321205d8c59fea Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think the proposal is interesting in that it could be an interesting way to solve the dust problem. While most solutions to dust focus on reducing how much are created and encouraging consolidating utxos to avoid them becoming dust, this proposal could utilize dust for valuable purposes. Why use valuable Bitcoin for NFTs or colored coins when dust can be split into it's unit satoshis and used with no loss of utility? Simple and elegant. I like it. If we're giving ACKs: ACK. Tho TBH I don't see any reason NACK this - seems like this doesn't affect consensus, doesn't affect relay, doesn't affect anything except people that run this algorithm on the blockchain. If people want to do something like this, people are going to do it whether or not the bitcoin community wants them to. A standard would be good rather than everyone doing their own thing. One thought I had was: what happens if/when it comes to pass that we increase payment precision by going sub-satoshi on chain? It seems like it would be fairly simple to extend that to ordinals by having fraction ordinals like 1.1 or 4.85. Could be an interesting thought to add to the proposal. > If a transaction is mined with the same transaction ID as outputs currently in the UTXO set, following the behavior of Bitcoin Core, the new transaction outputs displace the older UTXO set entries, destroying the ordinals contained in any unspent outputs of the first transaction. What you mean by "the same transaction id" here is unclear. I was interpreting the proposal to mean that UTXOs are all assigned a set of ordinals, and when that UTXO is spent, it transfers it's ordinals to outputs in the transaction the UTXO is spent in. Is that what you mean by this sentence? If so, I'd suggest rewording. @Damian > If I receive some Bitcoin I cannot know if some or any of those have been at any point in the past been stolen, I assume the transaction is honest, and in all likelihood it is likely that it is. This isn't true at all. Some bitcoins are indeed known to be stolen and even blacklisted by some companies/governments. I don't see how ordinals changes anything related to this. @vjudeu > What about zero satoshis? Those could be used for NFTs but not something like colored coins. It would be a strict subset of ability, tho its an interesting idea in its own right. On Thu, Feb 24, 2022, 02:15 damian--- via bitcoin-dev < bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > Not all people who have been stolen from believe that they have lost the > right and title to what has been stolen and in many cases they have not. > I do not excuse Bitcoin that it is impossible to have any individual > Bitcoin identified but also I do not care, if I receive Bitcoin honestly > I do not care what their history was. What if they were taken from a > brothel? It is not a matter for an ordinal to determine if a satoshi is > fungible. It is truth in effect that each satoshi is newly created to > the new UTXO and the old satoshi destroyed. -DA. > > On 2022-02-23 18:31, Casey Rodarmor wrote: > >> =E2=80=8BThe least reasonable thing I could expect is some claimed for= mer > >> holder of some ordianls turning up to challenge me that it was their > >> stolen Bitcoin was some of what I received. > > > > I think it's unlikely that this would come to pass. A previous owner > > of an ordinal wouldn't have any particular reason to expect that they > > should own it after they transfer it. Similar to how noting a dollar > > bill's serial number doesn't give you a claim to it after you spend > > it. From the BIP: > > > >> =E2=80=8BSince any ordinal can be sent to any address at any time, > >> ordinals that are transferred, even those with some public history, > >> should be considered to be fungible with other satoshis with no such > >> history. [1] > > > > > > > > Links: > > ------ > > [1] > > > https://github.com/casey/ord/blob/master/bip.mediawiki#backward-compatibi= lity > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > --0000000000003d321205d8c59fea Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I think the proposal i= s interesting in that it could be an interesting way to solve the dust prob= lem. While most solutions to dust focus on reducing how much are created an= d encouraging consolidating utxos to avoid them becoming dust, this proposa= l could utilize dust for valuable purposes. Why use valuable Bitcoin for NF= Ts or colored coins when dust can be split into it's unit satoshis and = used with no loss of utility?

Simple and elegant. I like it. If we're giving ACKs: ACK. Tho TBH= I don't see any reason NACK this - seems like this doesn't affect = consensus, doesn't affect relay, doesn't affect anything except peo= ple that run this algorithm on the blockchain. If people want to do somethi= ng like this, people are going to do it whether or not the bitcoin communit= y wants them to. A standard would be good rather than everyone doing their = own thing.

One thought I had was: wha= t happens if/when it comes to pass that we increase payment precision by go= ing sub-satoshi on chain? It seems like it would be fairly simple to extend= that to ordinals by having fraction ordinals like 1.1 or 4.85. Could be an= interesting thought to add to the proposal.

>=C2=A0If a transaction is mined with the same transaction ID as outp= uts=20 currently in the UTXO set, following the behavior of Bitcoin Core, the=20 new transaction outputs displace the older UTXO set entries, destroying=20 the ordinals contained in any unspent outputs of the first transaction.

What you mean by "the sa= me transaction id" here is unclear. I was interpreting the proposal to= mean that UTXOs are all assigned a set of ordinals, and when that UTXO is = spent, it transfers it's ordinals to outputs in the transaction the UTX= O is spent in. Is that what you mean by this sentence? If so, I'd sugge= st rewording.

@Damian=C2=A0
> I= f I receive some Bitcoin I cannot know if some or any of those have been at= any point in the past been stolen, I assume the transaction is honest, and= in all likelihood it is likely that it is.
This isn't true at all. Some bitcoins are indeed known to = be stolen and even blacklisted by some companies/governments. I don't s= ee how ordinals changes anything related to this.

= @vjudeu
> What about zero satoshis?

T= hose could be used for NFTs but not something like colored coins. It would = be a strict subset of ability, tho its an interesting idea in its own right= .=C2=A0




On Thu, Feb 24, 2= 022, 02:15 damian--- via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.= org> wrote:
Not all people who have been stolen from believe that they have lost the=
right and title to what has been stolen and in many cases they have not. I do not excuse Bitcoin that it is impossible to have any individual
Bitcoin identified but also I do not care, if I receive Bitcoin honestly I do not care what their history was. What if they were taken from a
brothel? It is not a matter for an ordinal to determine if a satoshi is fungible. It is truth in effect that each satoshi is newly created to
the new UTXO and the old satoshi destroyed. -DA.

=C2=A0 On 2022-02-23 18:31, Casey Rodarmor wrote:
>> =E2=80=8BThe least reasonable thing I could expect is some claimed= former
>> holder of some ordianls turning up to challenge me that it was the= ir
>> stolen Bitcoin was some of what I received.
>
> I think it's unlikely that this would come to pass. A previous own= er
> of an ordinal wouldn't have any particular reason to expect that t= hey
> should own it after they transfer it. Similar to how noting a dollar > bill's serial number doesn't give you a claim to it after you = spend
> it. From the BIP:
>
>> =E2=80=8BSince any ordinal can be sent to any address at any time,=
>> ordinals that are transferred, even those with some public history= ,
>> should be considered to be fungible with other satoshis with no su= ch
>> history. [1]
>
>
>
> Links:
> ------
> [1]
> https:/= /github.com/casey/ord/blob/master/bip.mediawiki#backward-compatibility<= br> _______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundati= on.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
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