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From: Jean-Paul Kogelman <jeanpaulkogelman@me.com>
In-reply-to: <D472C05D-7164-4ED1-B571-94415AD8E60F@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2015 08:22:53 +0800
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To: Eric Lombrozo <elombrozo@gmail.com>
Cc: "bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org"
	<bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin Core and hard forks
Precedence: list


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You are not going to get a fair fee market if your only form of enforcement i=
s the threat of exclusion.

A more fair fee market will develop if miners start offering quality of serv=
ice, preferably at multiple tiers. At that point any interference from a blo=
ck size cap will only be detrimental. In fact it will only highlight what th=
e cap is actually for; to prevent monster blocks.=20

Add better QoS tools for miners and extend the cap (when possible) and there=
's your fee market.

jp


> On Jul 24, 2015, at 8:04 AM, Eric Lombrozo via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@li=
sts.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>=20
> I should also add that I think those who claim that fee pressure will scar=
e away users and break the industry are *seriously* underestimating human in=
genuity in the face of a challenge. We can do this - we can overcome this ob=
stacle=A1=ADwe can find good solutions to a fee market. Unless someone can c=
ome up with another way to pay for the operation of the network, we NEED to d=
o this. What makes anyone think it will be easier to do later rather than no=
w? The longer we wait, the lower block rewards get, the larger the deployed i=
nfrastructure, the larger our userbase, the HARDER it will be to solve it. W=
e should solve it now - we will be much better off for it=A1=ADand so will o=
ur users.
>=20
>=20
>>> On Jul 23, 2015, at 4:57 PM, Eric Lombrozo <elombrozo@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On Jul 23, 2015, at 4:42 PM, Benedict Chan <bencxr@fragnetics.com> wrote=
:
>>>=20
>>> Scaling the network will come in the form of a combination of many
>>> optimizations. Just because we do not know for sure how to eventually
>>> serve 7 billion people does not mean we should make decisions on
>>> global validation that impact our ability to serve the current set of
>>> users.
>>=20
>> Agreed. But I believe the economic and security arguments I gave regardin=
g fees and incentives still hold and are largely separate from the scalabili=
ty issue. Please correct me if I overlooked something.
>>=20
>>=20
>>> Also, blocking a change because it's "more important to address issues
>>> such as..." other improvements will further slow down the discussion.
>>> I believe an increase will not prevent the development of other
>>> improvements that we need - in contrast, the sooner we can get over
>>> the limit (which, as you agree, needs to be changed at some point),
>>> the sooner we can get back to work.
>>=20
>> An increase in block size at this time will exacerbate security concerns a=
round nodes relying on other nodes to validate (particularly miners and wall=
ets). It=A1=AFs not really a matter of having limited developer resources th=
at need to be budgeted, as you seem to suggest.
>>=20
>> Regarding developments on properly handling fees, there must exist the ec=
onomic need for it before there=A1=AFs an earnest effort to solve it. Increa=
sing the block size right now will, in all likelihood, delay this effort. I=A1=
=AFd much prefer to first let the fee market evolve because it=A1=AFs a cruc=
ial component to the protocol=A1=AFs design and its security model=A1=ADand s=
o we can get a better sense for fee economics. Then we might be able to figu=
re out better approaches to block size changes in the future that makes sens=
e economically=A1=ADperhaps with mechanisms that can dynamically adjust it t=
o reflect resource availability and network load.
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>You are not going to get a fair fee ma=
rket if your only form of enforcement is the threat of exclusion.<br><br>A m=
ore fair fee market will develop if miners start offering quality of service=
, preferably at multiple tiers. At that point any interference from a block s=
ize cap will only be detrimental. In fact it will only highlight what the ca=
p is actually for; to prevent monster blocks.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div=
>Add better QoS tools for miners and extend the cap (when possible) and ther=
e's your fee market.</div><div><br></div><div>jp<br><br></div><div><br>On Ju=
l 24, 2015, at 8:04 AM, Eric Lombrozo via bitcoin-dev &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org=
</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><meta http-equiv=
=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html charset=3Dutf-8">I should also add th=
at I think those who claim that fee pressure will scare away users and break=
 the industry are *seriously* underestimating human ingenuity in the face of=
 a challenge. We can do this - we can overcome this obstacle=E2=80=A6we can f=
ind good solutions to a fee market. Unless someone can come up with another w=
ay to pay for the operation of the network, we NEED to do this. What makes a=
nyone think it will be easier to do later rather than now? The longer we wai=
t, the lower block rewards get, the larger the deployed infrastructure, the l=
arger our userbase, the HARDER it will be to solve it. We should solve it no=
w - we will be much better off for it=E2=80=A6and so will our users.<div cla=
ss=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote=
 type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Jul 23, 2015, at 4:57 PM, Eric L=
ombrozo &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:elombrozo@gmail.com" class=3D"">elombrozo@gmai=
l.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=
=3D""><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html charset=3Dutf-8=
" class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -=
webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><div class=3D=
""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Jul 23, 2015, at 4=
:42 PM, Benedict Chan &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bencxr@fragnetics.com" class=3D"=
">bencxr@fragnetics.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-n=
ewline"><div class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12=
px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-sp=
acing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-i=
ndent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-sp=
acing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !im=
portant;" class=3D"">Scaling the network will come in the form of a combinat=
ion of many</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font=
-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: n=
ormal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0=
px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0=
px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: H=
elvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-we=
ight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; te=
xt-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal=
; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: no=
ne; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">optimizations. Just because we d=
o not know for sure how to eventually</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvet=
ica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:=
 normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-al=
ign: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; wid=
ows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><s=
pan style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; fo=
nt-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height=
: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform=
: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-s=
troke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">serve=
 7 billion people does not mean we should make decisions on</span><br style=3D=
"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: n=
ormal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orp=
hans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white=
-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0=
px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font=
-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: n=
ormal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0=
px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0=
px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;=
" class=3D"">global validation that impact our ability to serve the current s=
et of</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style=
: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;=
 line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; te=
xt-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -w=
ebkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvet=
ica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:=
 normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-al=
ign: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; wid=
ows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; d=
isplay: inline !important;" class=3D"">users.</span><br style=3D"font-family=
: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font=
-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto;=
 text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: nor=
mal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=
=3D""></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>Agreed. But I b=
elieve the economic and security arguments I gave regarding fees and incenti=
ves still hold and are largely separate from the scalability issue. Please c=
orrect me if I overlooked something.</div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><b=
r class=3D""></div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div c=
lass=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style=
: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;=
 line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; te=
xt-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -w=
ebkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" clas=
s=3D"">Also, blocking a change because it's "more important to address issue=
s</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: no=
rmal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; lin=
e-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-t=
ransform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webki=
t-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica;=
 font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: nor=
mal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align:=
 start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows:=
 auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; displ=
ay: inline !important;" class=3D"">such as..." other improvements will furth=
er slow down the discussion.</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font=
-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; l=
etter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start=
; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;=
 word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D=
"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: n=
ormal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orp=
hans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white=
-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0=
px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">I believe an increa=
se will not prevent the development of other</span><br style=3D"font-family:=
 Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-=
weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; t=
ext-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: norma=
l; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D=
""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: norma=
l; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-h=
eight: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-tran=
sform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-t=
ext-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">=
improvements that we need - in contrast, the sooner we can get over</span><b=
r style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font=
-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: n=
ormal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: n=
one; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stro=
ke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size:=
 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter=
-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; tex=
t-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word=
-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !=
important;" class=3D"">the limit (which, as you agree, needs to be changed a=
t some point),</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; f=
ont-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing=
: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent=
: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing=
: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-famil=
y: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; fon=
t-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto=
; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: no=
rmal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float=
: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">the sooner we can get back t=
o work.</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-sty=
le: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: norma=
l; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; t=
ext-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -=
webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br clas=
s=3D""><div class=3D"">An increase in block size at this time will exacerbat=
e security concerns around nodes relying on other nodes to validate (particu=
larly miners and wallets). It=E2=80=99s not really a matter of having limite=
d developer resources that need to be budgeted, as you seem to suggest.</div=
><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Regarding developments=
 on properly handling fees, there must exist the economic need for it before=
 there=E2=80=99s an earnest effort to solve it. Increasing the block size ri=
ght now will, in all likelihood, delay this effort. I=E2=80=99d much prefer t=
o first let the fee market evolve because it=E2=80=99s a crucial component t=
o the protocol=E2=80=99s design and its security model=E2=80=A6and so we can=
 get a better sense for fee economics. Then we might be able to figure out b=
etter approaches to block size changes in the future that makes sense econom=
ically=E2=80=A6perhaps with mechanisms that can dynamically adjust it to ref=
lect resource availability and network load.</div></div></div></blockquote><=
/div><br class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>=
<span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>bitcoi=
n-dev mailing list</span><br><span><a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linux=
foundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a></span><br><span><a=
 href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev">htt=
ps://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a></span><br></=
div></blockquote></body></html>=

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