Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.osuosl.org (smtp1.osuosl.org [140.211.166.138]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93F36C000A for ; Fri, 16 Apr 2021 19:15:42 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp1.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75A2B84A24 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 2021 19:15:42 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: smtp1.osuosl.org (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from smtp1.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp1.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X3ZjhWMZrTEC for ; Fri, 16 Apr 2021 19:15:39 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0 Received: from mail-pl1-x62f.google.com (mail-pl1-x62f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::62f]) by smtp1.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EAEE683F66 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 2021 19:15:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pl1-x62f.google.com with SMTP id e2so10190501plh.8 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 2021 12:15:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=K8fQ0Wr6uy0wxpTWierjfFxSlRNG96853ZNaPjjuyGs=; b=LhAY+hkCEzPCsnC4hm45JfrR9+KXA93UJDVgwMslwdgahwLnqmLoIWY4pZoPQqq1wh nrXH9IJVIuo5nxEOE7aIotgWsVJRiJHrOrqFSkFAXOWnJVwb82C+Z0K7KjlIus9YJmmr uzn6bKNcRdxepED1jx14K/w9ABdIq7J8dRnS64LFBT9et2HCzoYvlQ1TPtBWp6TI063O FVHERqm6Bh9qWgFNiLPXQENEJL9sDGfTmvkw9JUyz7yFO8uckNW3zPuC0a/AJZDJsEcf ENAY0zUSplmApvGAE7L+hF04NLjFuaANpwsmx/1ov5kjMPuYqKQpALcWiqVXtpu4iyJm arrg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=K8fQ0Wr6uy0wxpTWierjfFxSlRNG96853ZNaPjjuyGs=; b=kRjqjsHHVqg93t/poG4bmOC5ivcnBdb0sKUzslMVUlKYvJCJwAMrbMtrOfMx4gtGdI Zv62rDyFrv98TNpBgA9ZBBJwGvHWuIw2+CkgWiGpYq5rOUa70Ia0a5m1ua/ZZpMDvfbe 8NantMJIdsnYNcMl+9CeNpgDUk9NewPO3y3t/W8ilNpThpvth51cnfBgoQA2O3OP6UXJ 90jr6brH7ciVS3fsYdYqmvt5BCC+bUWfNFJcPevwIixpGs5pYmmiayFcRhYpGzKI66Eq EUDUIH0/gXbZAxIvkKjBrTB9tCgkHJDw6Jm7+U9/1EaeZKzc6mKefCiu+miszjdq8Cu+ bUIQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533hqXSkApl1XcW37NTt5wdd/M8iHpfw3zzKei+Wdfa7+EVt+ElU 1ELl44S9T26m/IAIl2E/Xj2qPqWVPLUcouRbFYE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyHSrWeqzXfqRZ7xDTw1laraEE0nWsr0N25UyXne1zmnJdivZ2n0d4vtXnFMTWZUQ6+4sHsCOyFRyhkf2HG4jQ= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:528b:: with SMTP id w11mr11374837pjh.162.1618600539416; Fri, 16 Apr 2021 12:15:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Kostas Karasavvas Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 22:15:28 +0300 Message-ID: To: Christopher Gilliard , Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002f6cb005c01bce52" X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 19:33:07 +0000 Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP - limiting OP_RETURN / HF X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 19:15:42 -0000 --0000000000002f6cb005c01bce52 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Christopher, Some feedback: "OP_RETURN is limited to 40 bytes of data." It is 80 bytes. "A future BIP proposing such a layer two protocol will be forthcoming." So what is this BIP about? Just saying that it would be a nice idea? This BIP should be the one that would go through this L2 suggestion. If one root OP_RETURN substitutes all the rest it should say how that would be done... where would the merkle proofs be stored, what are the trust assumptions that we need to make, etc. "Objections to this proposal" section I agree with others re hard-fork, which would be a good thing of course. My main objection with this proposal is that I don't see a proposal. It seems like wishful thinking... if only we could substitute all the OP_RETURNs with one :-) We have to make sure that a proposal like this (L2, etc.) would make sure that there are incentives that justify the added complexity for the users. Multisig is not the only way data could be stored the wrong way; P2PK, P2PKH, P2SH, P2WPKH, P2WSH can also be used. If the incentives are not good enough people would start using these UTXO-bloat-heavy alternatives. There are a multitude of L2's (kind-of) that do this 'aggregation' of data hashes using merkle trees. Factom is adding a single merkle root per bitcoin block for the millions upon millions of records (of thousand of users) that they keep in their network. Opentimestamps, tierion, blockstacks and others do a similar thing. I have investigated several of those in the past, for one of my projects, but I ended up using plain old OP_RETURN because the overhead of their (L2-like) solution and trust assumptions where not to my liking; at least for my use case. They were pretty solid/useful for other use cases. Unless the proposed L2 is flexible/generic enough it would really prohibit this L2 innovation that OP_RETURN allowed (see above). On Fri, Apr 16, 2021 at 4:32 PM Christopher Gilliard via bitcoin-dev < bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > I have created a BIP which can be found here: > https://github.com/cgilliard/bips/blob/notarization/bip-XXXX.mediawiki > > I'm sending this email to start the discussion regarding this proposal. If > there are any comments/suggestions, please let me know. > > Regards, > Chris > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > -- Konstantinos A. Karasavvas Software Architect, Blockchain Engineer, Researcher, Educator https://twitter.com/kkarasavvas --0000000000002f6cb005c01bce52 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Christopher,

Some feedback:

"OP_RETURN is limited to 40 bytes of data."
It is 80 bytes.

"A future BIP proposing= such a layer two protocol will be forthcoming."
So what is = this BIP about? Just saying that it would be a nice idea? This BIP should b= e the one that would go through this L2 suggestion. If one root OP_RETURN s= ubstitutes all the rest it should say how that would be done... where would= the merkle proofs be stored, what are the trust assumptions=C2=A0that we n= eed to make, etc.

"Objections to this proposa= l" section
I agree with others re hard-fork, which would be = a good thing of course.=C2=A0 My main objection with this proposal is that = I don't see a proposal. It seems like wishful thinking... if only we co= uld substitute all the OP_RETURNs with one :-)

We = have to make sure that a proposal like this (L2, etc.) would make sure that= there are incentives that justify the added complexity for the users. Mult= isig is not the only way data could be stored the wrong way; P2PK, P2PKH, P= 2SH, P2WPKH, P2WSH can also be used. If the incentives are not good enough = people would start using these UTXO-bloat-heavy alternatives.
There are a multitude of L2's (kind-of) that do this 'a= ggregation' of data hashes using merkle trees. Factom is adding a singl= e=C2=A0merkle root per bitcoin block for the millions upon millions of reco= rds (of thousand of users) that they keep in their network. Opentimestamps,= tierion, blockstacks and others do a similar thing. I have investigated se= veral of those in the past, for one of my projects, but I ended up using pl= ain old OP_RETURN because the overhead of their (L2-like) solution and trus= t assumptions where not to my liking; at least for my use case. They were p= retty solid/useful for other use cases.

Unless the= proposed L2 is flexible/generic enough it would really prohibit this L2 in= novation that OP_RETURN allowed (see above).=C2=A0



On Fri, Apr 16, 2021 at 4:32 PM Christopher Gilliard via bitcoin= -dev <bitcoin-d= ev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
I have created a BIP which can= be found here:=C2=A0https://github.com/cgilliard= /bips/blob/notarization/bip-XXXX.mediawiki

I'm s= ending this email to start the discussion regarding this proposal. If there= are any comments/suggestions, please let me know.

Regards,
Chris
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
= bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail= man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev


--
Konstantinos A. Karas= avvas
Software Architect, Blockchain Engineer, Researcher, Educat= or
--0000000000002f6cb005c01bce52--