Return-Path: Received: from smtp2.osuosl.org (smtp2.osuosl.org [140.211.166.133]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20625C002D for ; Wed, 29 Jun 2022 05:02:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp2.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB38E401C2 for ; Wed, 29 Jun 2022 05:02:45 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp2.osuosl.org DB38E401C2 Authentication-Results: smtp2.osuosl.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=20210112 header.b=FD5ZtblJ X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.848 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.848 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from smtp2.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp2.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qfpXZWB5WCV6 for ; Wed, 29 Jun 2022 05:02:45 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0 DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp2.osuosl.org D077E400F6 Received: from mail-ua1-x935.google.com (mail-ua1-x935.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::935]) by smtp2.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D077E400F6 for ; Wed, 29 Jun 2022 05:02:44 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-ua1-x935.google.com with SMTP id o21so5329221uat.6 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2022 22:02:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=lgRqaLMkEnTV/iIlJVegCUUv/ouYjjcrcfhc4S84F8w=; b=FD5ZtblJkjHGOK5PPQ7do8xoyHT861EO7XAJ9le2sYb5pul9Bm5MltgKaAdggaaCwS rov/CiKBjYgolTopP7eIMDjYh8gjoEIJQ7wN4JQeyjMn28WeABHTkJYEAZTyM6FhN1i1 OpNASpeb6GUAdhdc5+mhqdphl/VbvV6PMosFuPR616zDJxR9on9dlsZKYArFLAKi9OoF jRxQ7JMx3Yq4P9BlWM2hlF6xT1+QUfZbv2I0u1J+89UlerbFx+oRrQFDwQf8N2M2rRXN yV/Xyh+4ExAjP2biHrtDhsA3HyvAUaQaUtJqaKEGyimFBIQPMaFZuJo1Q+urWvuP5lNC m6+A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=lgRqaLMkEnTV/iIlJVegCUUv/ouYjjcrcfhc4S84F8w=; b=uu82Y0EJJljJA3aMakqw2LCn7MZAQ0LB4CFOooRPlDHDREMcKBAQ7hw9hwsBSE96uG VRpIxssAJQdFRCL0lCh3khfTZEiYX6jcZVrrItvW6kuIb45BWWvwm78qrSqE9OSDZs+7 S3Q4E73SnTRG8JiirGWPzlC4ixPuLgltc8ZQRfsGPw3+x+5yJ0IqAHxVFE/1E+pSdCyv P6hqhtomtiqSdNv2AWn8w8yyDVKATCdElV66/tLYTvsk4gNTroShO4Yw3wd/0d1smEyf gTUkQVJfSdcFTHa3nQoXooyk9KcHYh7tduUfP9jB7bCVHAVSAqiv4SO7vZAz9u2RATyP V4Rg== X-Gm-Message-State: AJIora9Zi/0V8Z12uegHJL3hlcS8i6Kcgw1Si/JwLxCcCPIOxofKJNGY +J461vt02xPUto3975wGrhJBYk5JyjvGkSaZiZ5ihUxw X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGRyM1sDrQlqAOQms8WDSjT7qJq1E1zIoy/JoGx4NWr9ZxOA6m41qDnDRC44VZAefxYE4s1BNH2ycVgBBivTTOJFRsQ= X-Received: by 2002:ab0:60d3:0:b0:379:7774:9be2 with SMTP id g19-20020ab060d3000000b0037977749be2mr449044uam.32.1656478963545; Tue, 28 Jun 2022 22:02:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Alex Lee Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2022 01:02:30 -0400 Message-ID: To: Peter Todd Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000033397a05e28f1008" X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 29 Jun 2022 08:04:27 +0000 Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion , Billy Tetrud Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin covenants are inevitable X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2022 05:02:46 -0000 --00000000000033397a05e28f1008 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Jun 28, 2022 at 7:22 PM Peter Todd wrote: > On Tue, Jun 28, 2022 at 12:23:40PM -0400, Alex Lee via bitcoin-dev wrote: > > > > Those who never transact, never realize any benefit. > > > > > > While that's true, its not relevant and basically a red herring. You > need > > > to compare those who transact often and rarely hold, to those who hold > a > > > lot but rarely transact. Its not helpful to consider those who throw > their > > > bitcoin into a bottomless pit and never retrieve them. > > > > > > > There are legitimate uses for burning bitcoin, speaking of bottomless > pits. > > I would avoid confusing velocity metrics with utility, as these aren't > the > > same thing. > > All the legitimate uses for burning bitcoin are _not_ done via a > "bottomless > pit": they're done with transactions proving that the bitcoin has actually > been > burnt. And the value obtained by burning BTC in those scenarios is > affected by > tx fees and inflation just as much as any other tx. > > The "bottomless pit" is a metaphor for the inability to spend the coins again in the future once burned, as Billy appeared to be indicating that the frequent movement of coins in itself somehow produced utility. Naturally you are correct that the utility of the burn comes from the proof; I am not sure what the meaning of "burned coins" would be without the proof to be honest. > -- > https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org > --00000000000033397a05e28f1008 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Tue, Jun 28, 2022 at 7:22 PM Peter= Todd <pete@petertodd.org> = wrote:
On Tue, J= un 28, 2022 at 12:23:40PM -0400, Alex Lee via bitcoin-dev wrote:
> > > Those who never transact, never realize any benefit.
> >
> > While that's true, its not relevant and basically a red herri= ng. You need
> > to compare those who transact often and rarely hold, to those who= hold a
> > lot but rarely transact. Its not helpful to consider those who th= row their
> > bitcoin into a bottomless pit and never retrieve them.
> >
>
> There are legitimate uses for burning bitcoin, speaking of bottomless = pits.
> I would avoid confusing velocity metrics with utility, as these aren&#= 39;t the
> same thing.

All the legitimate uses for burning bitcoin are _not_ done via a "bott= omless
pit": they're done with transactions proving that the bitcoin has = actually been
burnt.=C2=A0 And the value obtained by burning BTC in those scenarios is af= fected by
tx fees and inflation just as much as any other tx.


The "bottomless pit" is a me= taphor for the inability to spend the coins again in the future once burned= , as Billy appeared to be indicating that the frequent movement of coins in= itself somehow produced utility. Naturally you are correct that the utilit= y of the burn comes from the proof; I am not sure what the meaning of "= ;burned coins" would be without the proof to be honest.
= =C2=A0
--
http= s://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
--00000000000033397a05e28f1008--