Return-Path: Received: from whitealder.osuosl.org (smtp1.osuosl.org [140.211.166.138]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A86AC000D for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2021 14:53:53 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by whitealder.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13AE985DB1 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2021 14:53:53 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org Received: from whitealder.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QLtQZR0cwKiG for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2021 14:53:50 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: from auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail.as397444.net (mail.as397444.net [69.59.18.99]) by whitealder.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A73F185C98 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2021 14:53:50 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail.as397444.net (Postfix) with UTF8SMTPSA id 500104A3B85; Thu, 18 Feb 2021 14:53:48 +0000 (UTC) X-DKIM-Note: Keys used to sign are likely public at https://as397444.net/dkim/ DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mattcorallo.com; s=1613658063; t=1613660028; bh=h7WdBP1S6zIXgDH4wR+AfG3saOsSbCPCCjx0A3Y4zOg=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=Vfx+IQta5dlJzj5ym+XPrRueAfesmC4VWZPrSWznnCDVKvR99tnmBbvx6BWjX1oIP MmXdYb6LYHKL361U5Z70/LuAxDPZ/hKrDXHOXkp2Fg/b19Vqc+ranG4gjOQIiKUuHH VCPg3onFfskc2zE5qGAmYsCwqunCePC9+2upz5hhZnN+1aoutF2UW5naT9Tz+8slEZ GouJ6ZQi+1xlFzF9hPl9/Ch0+DCn35bgNH2BGK8ScP/cxtvETbhCF14jvCQFIrZzOx vudYs1KFqclLalUQSVLhL85ANY/umVqs5mVp2wRhSaP7lckvmr60+oqczpM2q9CBk/ dh0y78139bqWQ== Message-ID: <4a8a1978-f265-e81c-0286-b927b964fc98@mattcorallo.com> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2021 09:53:48 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Michael Folkson References: <8591CF93-E574-4C23-90D5-FA410637DECD@mattcorallo.com> <7b8543c3-8ff2-3a6a-b2d4-f4a6cf150d78@mattcorallo.com> From: Matt Corallo In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Yesterday's Taproot activation meeting on lockinontimeout (LOT) X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2021 14:53:53 -0000 You say "short term PR", I say "risking millions of user dollars". On 2/18/21 09:51, Michael Folkson wrote: > > getting unlucky and hitting a 4-block reorg that happens to include a double-spend and some PR around an exchange > losing millions would be worse than having Taproot is good. > > We are at the point where an upgrade that confers significant long term benefits for the whole ecosystem is not as > important as bad short term PR? That is a depressing outlook if that is what you believe. > > Even in that worst case scenario exchanges should not lose money if they are competent and are able to manage that risk. > > On Thu, Feb 18, 2021 at 2:42 PM Matt Corallo > wrote: > > We've had several softforks in Bitcoin which, through the course of their activation, had a several-block reorg. That > should be indication enough that we need to very carefully consider activation to ensure we reduce the risk of that as > much as absolutely possible. Again, while I think Taproot is a huge improvement and am looking forward to being able to > use it, getting unlucky and hitting a 4-block reorg that happens to include a double-spend and some PR around an > exchange losing millions would be worse than having Taproot is good. > > Matt > > On 2/18/21 09:26, Michael Folkson wrote: > > Thanks for your response Matt. It is a fair challenge. There is always going to be an element of risk with soft > forks, > > all we can do is attempt to minimize that risk. I would argue that risk has been minimized for Taproot. > > > > You know (better than I do in fact) that Bitcoin (and layers built on top of it) greatly benefit from upgrades > such as > > Taproot. To say we shouldn't do Taproot or any future soft forks because there is a small but real risk of chain > splits > > I think is shortsighted. Indeed I think even if we collectively decided not to do any future soft fork upgrades ever > > again on this mailing list that wouldn't stop soft fork attempts from other people in future. > > > > I don't think there is anything else we can do to minimize that risk for the Taproot soft fork at this point > though I'm > > open to ideas. To reiterate that risk will never be zero. I don't think I see Bitcoin as fragile as you seem to > (though > > admittedly you have a much better understanding than me of what happened in 2017). > > > > The likely scenario for the Taproot soft fork is LOT turns out to be entirely irrelevant and miners activate Taproot > > before it becomes relevant. And even the unlikely worst case scenario would only cause short term disruption and > > wouldn't kill Bitcoin long term. > > > > On Thu, Feb 18, 2021 at 2:01 PM Matt Corallo > >> wrote: > > > >     If the eventual outcome is that different implementations (that have material *transaction processing* userbases, > >     and I’m not sure to what extent that’s true with Knots) ship different consensus rules, we should stop here > and not > >     activate Taproot. Seriously. > > > >     Bitcoin is a consensus system. The absolute worst outcome at all possible is to have it fall out of consensus. > > > >     Matt > > > >>     On Feb 18, 2021, at 08:11, Michael Folkson via bitcoin-dev > >>     >> wrote: > >> > >>      > >>     Right, that is one option. Personally I would prefer a Bitcoin Core release sets LOT=false (based on what I have > >>     heard from Bitcoin Core contributors) and a community effort releases a version with LOT=true. I don't think > users > >>     should be forced to choose something they may have no context on before they are allowed to use Bitcoin Core. > >> > >>     My current understanding is that roasbeef is planning to set LOT=false on btcd (an alternative protocol > >>     implementation to Bitcoin Core) and Luke Dashjr hasn't yet decided on Bitcoin Knots. > >> > >> > >> > >>     On Thu, Feb 18, 2021 at 11:52 AM ZmnSCPxj > >> wrote: > >> > >>         Good morning all, > >> > >>         > "An activation mechanism is a consensus change like any other change, can be contentious like any other > >>         change, and we must resolve it like any other change. Otherwise we risk arriving at the darkest timeline." > >>         > > >>         > Who's we here? > >>         > > >>         > Release both and let the network decide. > >> > >>         A thing that could be done, without mandating either LOT=true or LOT=false, would be to have a release that > >>         requires a `taprootlot=1` or `taprootlot=0` and refuses to start if the parameter is not set. > >> > >>         This assures everyone that neither choice is being forced on users, and instead what is being forced on > users, > >>         is for users to make that choice themselves. > >> > >>         Regards, > >>         ZmnSCPxj > >> > >>         > > >>         > On Thu, Feb 18, 2021 at 3:08 AM Michael Folkson via bitcoin-dev > >>         >> wrote: > >>         > > >>         > > Thanks for your response Ariel. It would be useful if you responded to specific points I have made > in the > >>         mailing list post or at least quote these ephemeral "people" you speak of. I don't know if you're responding > >>         to conversation on the IRC channel or on social media etc. > >>         > > > >>         > > > The argument comes from a naive assumption that users MUST upgrade to the choice that is submitted > into > >>         code. But in fact this isn't true and some voices in this discussion need to be more humble about what users > >>         must or must not run. > >>         > > > >>         > > I personally have never made this assumption. Of course users aren't forced to run any particular > software > >>         version, quite the opposite. Defaults set in software versions matter though as many users won't change > them. > >>         > > > >>         > > > Does no one realize that it is a very possible outcome that if LOT=true is released there may be > only a > >>         handful of people that begin running it while everyone else delays their upgrade (with the very good > reason of > >>         not getting involved in politics) and a year later those handful of people just become stuck at the > moment of > >>         MUST_SIGNAL, unable to mine new blocks? > >>         > > > >>         > > It is a possible outcome but the likely outcome is that miners activate Taproot before LOT is even > >>         relevant. I think it is prudent to prepare for the unlikely but possible outcome that miners fail to > activate > >>         and hence have this discussion now rather than be unprepared for that eventuality. If LOT is set to > false in a > >>         software release there is the possibility (T2 in > >> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-February/018380.html > > >>          >) of individuals or a > >>         proportion of the community changing LOT to true. In that sense setting LOT=false in a software release > >>         appears to be no more safe than LOT=true. > >>         > > > >>         > > > The result: a wasted year of waiting and a minority of people who didn't want to be lenient with > miners > >>         by default. > >>         > > > >>         > > There is the (unlikely but possible) possibility of a wasted year if LOT is set to false and miners fail > >>         to activate. I'm not convinced by this perception that LOT=true is antagonistic to miners. I actually > think it > >>         offers them clarity on what will happen over a year time period and removes the need for coordinated or > >>         uncoordinated community UASF efforts on top of LOT=false. > >>         > > > >>         > > > An activation mechanism is a consensus change like any other change, can be contentious like any other > >>         change, and we must resolve it like any other change. Otherwise we risk arriving at the darkest timeline. > >>         > > > >>         > > I don't know what you are recommending here to avoid "this darkest timeline". Open discussions have > >>         occurred and are continuing and in my mailing list post that you responded to **I recommended we propose > >>         LOT=false be set in protocol implementations such as Bitcoin Core**. I do think this apocalyptic language > >>         isn't particularly helpful. In an open consensus system discussion is healthy, we should prepare for bad or > >>         worst case scenarios in advance and doing so is not antagonistic or destructive. Mining pools have pledged > >>         support for Taproot but we don't build secure systems based on pledges of support, we build them to minimize > >>         trust in any human actors. We can be grateful that people like Alejandro have worked hard on > >> taprootactivation.com > (and this effort has informed the discussion) without > >>         taking pledges of support as cast iron guarantees. > >>         > > > >>         > > TL;DR It sounds like you agree with my recommendation to set LOT=false in protocol implementations in my > >>         email :) > >>         > > > >>         > > On Thu, Feb 18, 2021 at 5:43 AM Ariel Lorenzo-Luaces > >>         >> wrote: > >>         > > > >>         > > > Something what strikes me about the conversation is the emotion surrounding the letters UASF. > >>         > > > It appears as if people discuss UASF as if it's a massive tidal wave of support that is > inevitable, like > >>         we saw during segwit activation. But the actual definition is "any activation that is not a MASF". > >>         > > > A UASF can consist of a single node, ten nodes, a thousand, half of all nodes, all business' nodes, or > >>         even all the non mining nodes. On another dimension it can have zero mining support, 51% support, 49% > support, > >>         or any support right up against a miner activation threshold. > >>         > > > Hell a UASF doesn't even need code or even a single node running as long as it exists as a possibility > >>         in people's minds. > >>         > > > The only thing a UASF doesn't have is miner support above an agreed activation threshold (some number > >>         above %51). > >>         > > > I say this because it strikes me when people say that they are for LOT=true with the logic that > since a > >>         UASF is guaranteed to happen then it's better to just make it default from the beginning. Words like > >>         coordination and safety are sometimes sprinkled into the argument. > >>         > > > The argument comes from a naive assumption that users MUST upgrade to the choice that is submitted > into > >>         code. But in fact this isn't true and some voices in this discussion need to be more humble about what users > >>         must or must not run. > >>         > > > Does no one realize that it is a very possible outcome that if LOT=true is released there may be > only a > >>         handful of people that begin running it while everyone else delays their upgrade (with the very good > reason of > >>         not getting involved in politics) and a year later those handful of people just become stuck at the > moment of > >>         MUST_SIGNAL, unable to mine new blocks? Or attracting a minority of miners, activating, and forking off > into a > >>         minority fork. Then a lot=false could be started that ends up activating the feature now that the stubborn > >>         option has ran its course. > >>         > > > The result: a wasted year of waiting and a minority of people who didn't want to be lenient with > miners > >>         by default. The chains could be called BitcoinLenient and BitcoinStubborn. > >>         > > > How is that strictly safer or more coordinated? > >>         > > > I may be in the minority, or maybe a silent majority, or maybe a majority that just hasn't considered > >>         this as a choice but honestly if there is contention about whether we're going to be stubborn or lenient > with > >>         miners for Taproot and in the future then I prefer to just not activate anything at all. I'm fine for > calling > >>         bitcoin ossified, accepting that segwit is Bitcoin's last network upgrade. Taproot is amazing but no new > >>         feature is worth a network split down the middle. > >>         > > > Maybe in 10 or 20 years, when other blockchains implement features like Taproot and many more, we will > >>         become envious enough to put aside our differences on how to behave towards miners and finally activate > Taproot. > >>         > > > An activation mechanism is a consensus change like any other change, can be contentious like any other > >>         change, and we must resolve it like any other change. Otherwise we risk arriving at the darkest timeline. > >>         > > > Cheers > >>         > > > Ariel Lorenzo-Luaces > >>         > > > On Feb 17, 2021, at 7:05 AM, Michael Folkson via bitcoin-dev > > >>         >> wrote: > >>         > > > > >>         > > > > Yesterday (February 16th) we held a second meeting on Taproot > >>         > > > > activation on IRC which again was open to all. Despite what appeared > >>         > > > > to be majority support for LOT=false over LOT=true in the first > >>         > > > > meeting I (and others) thought the arguments had not been explored in > >>         > > > > depth and that we should have a follow up meeting almost entirely > >>         > > > > focused on whether LOT (lockinontimeout) should be set to true or > >>         > > > > false. > >>         > > > > > >>         > > > > The meeting was announced here: > >>         > > > > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-February/018380.html > > >>          > > >>         > > > > > >>         > > > > In that mailing list post I outlined the arguments for LOT=true (T1 to > >>         > > > > T6) and arguments for LOT=false (F1 to F6) in their strongest form I > >>         > > > > could. David Harding responded with an additional argument for > >>         > > > > LOT=false (F7) here: > >>         > > > > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-February/018415.html > > >>          > > >>         > > > > > >>         > > > > These meetings are very challenging given they are open to all, you > >>         > > > > don’t know who will attend and you don’t know most people’s views in > >>         > > > > advance. I tried to give time for both the LOT=true arguments and the > >>         > > > > LOT=false arguments to be discussed as I knew there was support for > >>         > > > > both. We only tried evaluating which had more support and which had > >>         > > > > more strong opposition towards the end of the meeting. > >>         > > > > > >>         > > > > The conversation log is here: > >>         > > > > http://gnusha.org/taproot-activation/2021-02-16.log > > > >>         > > > > > >>         > > > > (If you are so inclined you can watch a video of the meeting here. > >>         > > > > Thanks to the YouTube account “Bitcoin” for setting up the livestream: > >>         > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpl5q1ovMLM > >) > >>         > > > > > >>         > > > > A summary of the meeting was provided by Luke Dashjr on Mastodon here: > >>         > > > > https://bitcoinhackers.org/@lukedashjr/105742918779234566 > > >>          > > >>         > > > > > >>         > > > > Today's #Bitcoin #Taproot meeting was IMO largely unproductive, but we > >>         > > > > did manage to come to consensus on everything but LockinOnTimeout. > >>         > > > > > >>         > > > > Activation height range: 693504-745920 > >>         > > > > > >>         > > > > MASF threshold: 1815/2016 blocks (90%) > >>         > > > > > >>         > > > > Keep in mind only ~100 people showed for the meetings, hardly > >>         > > > > representative of the entire community. > >>         > > > > > >>         > > > > So, these details remain JUST a proposal for now. > >>         > > > > > >>         > > > > It seems inevitable that there won't be consensus on LOT. > >>         > > > > > >>         > > > > Everyone will have to choose for himself. :/ > >>         > > > > > >>         > > > > Personally I agree with most of this. I agree that there wasn’t > >>         > > > > overwhelming consensus for either LOT=true or LOT=false. However, from > >>         > > > > my perspective there was clearly more strong opposition (what would > >>         > > > > usually be deemed a NACK in Bitcoin Core review terminology) from > >>         > > > > Bitcoin Core contributors, Lightning developers and other community > >>         > > > > members against LOT=true than there was for LOT=false. Andrew Chow > >>         > > > > tried to summarize views from the meeting in this analysis: > >>         > > > > https://gist.github.com/achow101/3e179501290abb7049de198d46894c7c > > >>          > > >>         > > > > > >>         > > > > I am also aware of other current and previous Bitcoin Core > >>         > > > > contributors and Lightning developers who didn’t attend the meeting in > >>         > > > > person who are opposed to LOT=true. I don’t want to put them in the > >>         > > > > spotlight for no reason but if you go through the conversation logs of > >>         > > > > not only the meeting but the weeks of discussion prior to this meeting > >>         > > > > you will see their views evaluated on the ##taproot-activation > >>         > > > > channel. In addition, on taprootactivation.com > > some mining pools > >>         > > > > expressed a preference for lot=false though I don’t know how strong > >>         > > > > that preference was. > >>         > > > > > >>         > > > > I am only one voice but it is my current assessment that if we are to > >>         > > > > attempt to finalize Taproot activation parameters and propose them to > >>         > > > > the community at this time our only option is to propose LOT=false. > >>         > > > > Any further delay appears to me counterproductive in our collective > >>         > > > > aim to get the Taproot soft fork activated as early as possible. > >>         > > > > > >>         > > > > Obviously others are free to disagree with that assessment and > >>         > > > > continue discussions but personally I will be attempting to avoid > >>         > > > > those discussions unless prominent new information comes to light or > >>         > > > > various specific individuals change their minds. > >>         > > > > > >>         > > > > Next week we are planning a code review of the Bitcoin Core PR #19573 > >>         > > > > which was initially delayed because of this LOT discussion. As I’ve > >>         > > > > said previously that will be loosely following the format of the > >>         > > > > Bitcoin Core PR review club and will be lower level and more > >>         > > > > technical. That is planned for Tuesday February 23rd at 19:00 UTC on > >>         > > > > the IRC channel ##taproot-activation. > >>         > > > > > >>         > > > > Thanks to the meeting participants (and those who joined the > >>         > > > > discussion on the channel prior and post the meeting) for engaging > >>         > > > > productively and in good faith. > >>         > > > >>         > > -- > >>         > > Michael Folkson > >>         > > Email: michaelfolkson@gmail.com > > >>         > > Keybase: michaelfolkson > >>         > > PGP: 43ED C999 9F85 1D40 EAF4 9835 92D6 0159 214C FEE3 > >>         > > _______________________________________________ > >>         > > bitcoin-dev mailing list > >>         > > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > > > >>         > > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > > >>          > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>     -- > >>     Michael Folkson > >>     Email: michaelfolkson@gmail.com > > >>     Keybase: michaelfolkson > >>     PGP: 43ED C999 9F85 1D40 EAF4 9835 92D6 0159 214C FEE3 > >>     _______________________________________________ > >>     bitcoin-dev mailing list > >> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > > > >> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > > >>      > > > > > > > > > -- > > Michael Folkson > > Email: michaelfolkson@gmail.com > > > Keybase: michaelfolkson > > PGP: 43ED C999 9F85 1D40 EAF4 9835 92D6 0159 214C FEE3 > > > > -- > Michael Folkson > Email: michaelfolkson@gmail.com > Keybase: michaelfolkson > PGP: 43ED C999 9F85 1D40 EAF4 9835 92D6 0159 214C FEE3