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[2003:dd:6712:6425:f545:397f:d5b8:4cc]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y18sm2674750wmi.23.2019.07.02.05.51.26 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 02 Jul 2019 05:51:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Tamas Blummer Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_5EA16DFE-CFEC-4E35-A5A8-1107330CF08D"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2019 14:51:31 +0200 In-Reply-To: To: ZmnSCPxj References: <0DBC0DEA-C999-4AEE-B2E1-D5337ECD9405@gmail.com> <063D7C06-F5D8-425B-80CE-CAE03A1AAD0C@voskuil.org> <0AA10217-E1CC-46D1-9B43-038CEEF942CD@gmail.com> <0Bwi2ejRw4BgoABZ0X0kBdwLAkIKEv1svoyi0zqGQPeqV1g8xR43tBMgYoS52Vcxkgj7DndmNLIje40au51trIGTvrpcet8GivTgqysVC8w=@protonmail.com> <0190F226-7133-4B6D-8750-25CAB5C73D17@gmail.com> <7E8yyDSqmXEfFtcZRx2vdmPuovamf67X6aDHrokgaYScm01zPivVKpI3Br2PrzBdVdvKBqECP96EFB5ebT8sPfMWU8npJwS_wujFs00bcqU=@protonmail.com> <38FAD812-A764-49F5-BA80-ED10685A1714@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU, FREEMAIL_FROM, HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 02 Jul 2019 13:00:30 +0000 Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Generalized covenants with taproot enable riskless or risky lending, prevent credit inflation through fractional reserve X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2019 12:51:30 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_5EA16DFE-CFEC-4E35-A5A8-1107330CF08D Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_115EBD6F-24E7-4D7D-ADFB-60E1B963DEF6" --Apple-Mail=_115EBD6F-24E7-4D7D-ADFB-60E1B963DEF6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hello ZmnSCPxj, > On Jul 2, 2019, at 12:33, ZmnSCPxj wrote: >=20 > =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 = Original Message =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2= =80=90 > On Tuesday, July 2, 2019 5:30 PM, Tamas Blummer = > wrote: >=20 >> The advertiser would thereby put the funds of the HODLer on risk of = his misbehavior, which means the HODLer would have to trust the = advertizing service. >=20 > No it would not :) You are right. I noticed after sending my reply and then I sent two = other. I apologize for being noisy. Let me consolidate my thinking, here. If there is a use for UTXOs with temporary control, then those who want = that use will pay for it. A user of a service that requires temporary control UTXOs would need to = cover: 1. fees required by the service 2. the opportunity cost of temporary ownership paid to the original = holder who gave up control. If the service is operated by an entity billing user then it can use = UTXOs of minimal value for its operation and practically ignore = opportunity interest. This is the case with theater tickets just and other simple colored coin = like use of Bitcoin. Also in case of the unchained advertizement, if the = service bills its user for its internal re-allocation of an UTXO, then why would it need to use = significant value temorary control UTXOs? Actually why not use plain = UTXOs, to start with? If however the service is a common good, a network without owner and = therefore not billing on behalf of someone, but wants to protect itself = from spam, then it is could require temporary access to significant = value UTXOs and thereby induce opportunity cost to user. Alternatively = it could require burning ordinary UTXOs. Burning indirectly benefits all = HODLer, temporary control benefits those who consciously gave up = control. I dislike burning as it is unsustainable. If the implementation of temporary use is enforced by consenus such that = it is transitive, then temporary use could be re-rented or sold to = recover opportunity cost for no longer needed temporary access, making = it useable for an other service. Temporary access UTXOs with covenants allows us to build spam limited = public services that are not owned by an operator and financially = benefit HODLer offering them riskless interest. Tamas Blummer --Apple-Mail=_115EBD6F-24E7-4D7D-ADFB-60E1B963DEF6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

Hello = ZmnSCPxj,

On Jul 2, 2019, at 12:33, ZmnSCPxj <ZmnSCPxj@protonmail.com> wrote:
=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80= =90=E2=80=90 Original Message =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90= =E2=80=90=E2=80=90
On Tuesday, July 2, 2019 5:30 PM, Tamas = Blummer <tamas.blummer@gmail.com> wrote:

The advertiser would thereby = put the funds of the HODLer on risk of his misbehavior, which means the = HODLer would have to trust the advertizing service.

No it would not :)


You are right. I noticed after sending = my reply and then I sent two other. I apologize for being = noisy.

Let me = consolidate my thinking, here.

If there is a use for UTXOs with = temporary control, then those who want that use will pay for = it. 

A = user of a service that requires temporary control UTXOs would need to = cover: 

1. = fees required by the service
2. the opportunity = cost of temporary ownership paid to the original holder who gave up = control.

If = the service is operated by an entity billing user then it can use UTXOs = of minimal value for its operation and practically ignore opportunity = interest.
This is the case with theater tickets = just and other simple colored coin like use of Bitcoin. Also in case of = the unchained advertizement, if the service bills its = user 
for its internal re-allocation of an = UTXO, then why would it need to use significant value temorary control = UTXOs? Actually why not use plain UTXOs, to start with?

If however the service = is a common good, a network without owner and therefore not billing on = behalf of someone, but wants to protect itself from spam, then it is = could require temporary access to significant value UTXOs and thereby = induce opportunity cost to user. Alternatively it could require burning = ordinary UTXOs. Burning indirectly benefits all HODLer, temporary = control benefits those who consciously gave up control. I dislike = burning as it is unsustainable.

If the implementation of temporary use = is enforced by consenus such that it is transitive, then temporary use = could be re-rented or sold to recover opportunity cost for no longer = needed temporary access, making it useable for an other = service. 

Temporary access UTXOs with covenants allows us to build spam = limited public services that are not owned by an operator and = financially benefit HODLer offering them riskless interest.

Tamas = Blummer
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