Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E33BC8E3 for ; Fri, 7 Aug 2015 23:17:51 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-io0-f170.google.com (mail-io0-f170.google.com [209.85.223.170]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5BF4E130 for ; Fri, 7 Aug 2015 23:17:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ioeg141 with SMTP id g141so125403806ioe.3 for ; Fri, 07 Aug 2015 16:17:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=Cf3qQlyGR4/K3JNFITx5dqbYtypU0W5ehomqxedhKyY=; b=bDkMGCvXq7vWlo8BwZA/2jEllVfvuaaggmoPi8SAOQ/s0CgUOeqv1wh9QeVdbarn3O CWw6V5A9aJYtxDXZhE05JsK0GF5WvXZa7ZjkCiGn1MPHeTe5Qh/vOkxQ3KU6XivTy45d HOj+QA8GsngDYyhYzd22PeKjicev8gGv8k6f5Bq3c7hrKHc5W7aGjlnMVzo3mZNas5KV 9jXzIMTTXEftBIkS4CNcXMJYpBhb406LOEo8fA/MlmII3KQyRAw/P60Qqtdg6e8c/R4l X1WVhxzXtzQxg2nbvFdm1/6qF7nmV45kUpz1lSpMPEQKBR02H3r/W5/9Tbgf24BDmE6m /0sw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmPCOkM4XRGduyQsM/sN8vsalo+rV/KNV1N8GxPellxo7828S+/nS+8D3DEBgiLBh0IgNLT X-Received: by 10.107.130.166 with SMTP id m38mr12556347ioi.77.1438989470761; Fri, 07 Aug 2015 16:17:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.107.158.140 with HTTP; Fri, 7 Aug 2015 16:17:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [172.56.16.232] In-Reply-To: References: From: Mark Friedenbach Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 16:17:31 -0700 Message-ID: To: Sergio Demian Lerner Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113eb9c83d954e051cc0d867 X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org Cc: Arnoud Kouwenhoven - Pukaki Corp via bitcoin-dev Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] If you had a single chance to double the transactions/second Bitcoin allows... X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Development Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2015 23:17:52 -0000 --001a113eb9c83d954e051cc0d867 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Then I would suggest working on payment channel networks. No decrease of the interblock time will ever compete with the approximately instant time it takes to validate a microchannel payment. On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 4:08 PM, Sergio Demian Lerner < sergio.d.lerner@gmail.com> wrote: > In some rare occasions in everyday life, what matters is seconds. Like > when paying for parking in the car while some other cars are behind you in > the line. You don't want them to get upset. > > I takes me tens of minutes to shop. But once you choose your merchandise > and your payment starts processing, if the payment system allows several > payments to be pending simultaneously and you're not blocking the next > person to pay, then I don't care waiting some minutes for confirmation. But > saving 10 minutes of confirmation is a lot. > > I ague that our time is mostly measured in minutes (but I don't have any > sociological, cultural, genetic or anthropological evidence). It takes > minutes to read an e-mail, minutes to correct a bug, minutes to have lunch, > minutes to drive to the office, minutes to talk to your kids. A payment > taking 1 minute is much better than a payment taking 10. If I could choose > a single thing to change to Bitcoin, I would lower the payment time, even > within the minute scale. > > Sergio > > > > On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 7:46 PM, Natanael wrote: > >> Den 7 aug 2015 23:37 skrev "Sergio Demian Lerner via bitcoin-dev" < >> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>: >> > >> > Mark, >> > It took you 3 minutes to respond to my e-mail. And I responded to you 4 >> minutes later. If you had responded to me in 10 minutes, I would be of out >> the office and we wouldn't have this dialogue. So 5 minutes is a lot of >> time. >> > >> > Obviously this is not a technical response to the technical issues you >> argue. But "minutes" is a time scale we humans use to measure time very >> often. >> >> But what's more likely to matter is seconds. What you need then is some >> variant of multisignature notaries (Greenaddress.it, lightning network), >> where the combination of economic incentives and legal liability gives you >> the assurance of doublespend protection from the time of publication of the >> transaction to the first block confirmation. >> > > --001a113eb9c83d954e051cc0d867 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Then I would suggest working on payment channel networks. = No decrease of the interblock time will ever compete with the approximately= instant time it takes to validate a microchannel payment.

On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 4= :08 PM, Sergio Demian Lerner <sergio.d.lerner@gmail.com> wrote:
In some rare= occasions in everyday life, what matters is seconds. Like when paying for = parking in the car while some other cars are behind you in the line. You do= n't want them to get upset.=C2=A0

I takes me tens of = minutes to shop. But once you choose your merchandise and your payment star= ts processing, if the payment system allows several payments to be pending = simultaneously and you're not blocking the next person to pay, then I d= on't care waiting some minutes for confirmation. But saving 10 minutes = of confirmation is a lot.

I ague that our time is = mostly measured in minutes (but I don't have any sociological, cultural= , genetic or anthropological evidence). It takes minutes to read an e-mail,= minutes to correct a bug, minutes to have lunch, minutes to drive to the o= ffice, minutes to talk to your kids. A payment taking 1 minute is much bett= er than a payment taking 10. If I could choose a single thing to change to = Bitcoin, I would lower the payment time, even within the minute scale.

Sergio<= /div>



<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 7:46 PM, Natanael <nat= anael.l@gmail.com> wrote:
<= span>

Den 7 aug 2015 23:37 skrev "Sergio Demian Lerner v= ia bitcoin-dev" <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>:
>
> Mark,
> It took you 3 minutes to respond to my e-mail. And I responded to you = 4 minutes later. If you had responded to me in 10 minutes, I would be of ou= t the office and we wouldn't have this dialogue. So 5 minutes is a lot = of time.
>
> Obviously this is not a technical response to the technical issues you= argue. But "minutes" is a time scale we humans use to measure ti= me very often.

But what's more likely to matter is seconds. What= you need then is some variant of multisignature notaries (Greenaddress.it,= lightning network), where the combination of economic incentives and legal= liability gives you the assurance of doublespend protection from the time = of publication of the transaction to the first block confirmation.



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