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Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 01:48:42 -0500
Message-ID: <CAJHLa0P9cXWb-dOGL-A-iNTkELz3fO-woihiprD5NiUi_V74Yw@mail.gmail.com>
From: Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@bitpay.com>
To: Odinn Cyberguerrilla <odinn.cyberguerrilla@riseup.net>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bd6bad40d293604f10237b2
Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>,
	Stephane Brossier <stephane@kill-bill.org>,
	Pierre-Alexandre Meyer <pierre@kill-bill.org>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Extension for BIP-0070 to support
	recurring payments
Precedence: list

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Let's keep fund raising off this mailing list, please.  PS bounties don't
work.


On Tue, Jan 28, 2014 at 1:08 AM, Odinn Cyberguerrilla <
odinn.cyberguerrilla@riseup.net> wrote:

> Greatly appreciate seeing this discussion occur.  This is something that
> potentially could be supported through a bounty - possibly a process BIP?
>
> Possibly related: https://gist.github.com/ABISprotocol/8515891
>
> > Yes, recurring payments and subscriptions is a frequently-requested
> > feature.  It needs a new BIP.  Here is an outline:
> >
> > The situation is somewhat analogous to HTML5 local storage.  The remote
> > (merchant) wants to initiate a persistent behavior.  This is bitcoin, so
> > we
> > have a "push" model for payment, and the user has complete control.  The
> > merchant can, at most, send a "subscription request."  The user is
> > responsible for making on-time payments after that point.
> >
> > Centralized services like coinbase.com or blockchain.info will have an
> > easy
> > time of it.  An automated program on their backend, sending payments as
> > needed, is easy and direct.
> >
> > More inventive services might employ multisig transactions, generating
> and
> > signing one signature of a TX, then sending that TX to the human for
> > further signing and publishing.  A few competing vendors could offer bots
> > that provide this signing service.
> >
> > Decentralized, standalone wallet clients will be somewhat troublesome.
>  We
> > can store a local subscription request, and send recurring payments...
>  if
> > the wallet app is running.  If not, the user will be missing payments,
> > that
> > perhaps they intended to make (rent!).
> >
> > Each of these solutions can be cancelled at any time by the user.  As
> > such,
> > a courtesy "subscription cancelled" message sent to the merchant is
> > recommended.  User controls the usage of their money at all times, the
> way
> > things should be.
> >
> > And finally, you do not want to make it /too easy/ to send money over and
> > over again.  From a human-interface perspective, a textual reminder to
> > send
> > money might be preferred over actual recurring payment automation:
> > reminder
> > email + manual spend inserts a bit of additional human thought and review
> > into the process, with all that entails.
> >
> > --
> > Jeff Garzik
> > Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
> > BitPay, Inc.      https://bitpay.com/
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > WatchGuard Dimension instantly turns raw network data into actionable
> > security intelligence. It gives you real-time visual feedback on key
> > security issues and trends.  Skip the complicated setup - simply import
> > a virtual appliance and go from zero to informed in seconds.
> >
> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=123612991&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk_______________________________________________
> > Bitcoin-development mailing list
> > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
> >
>
>
>


-- 
Jeff Garzik
Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
BitPay, Inc.      https://bitpay.com/

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Let&#39;s keep fund raising off this mailing list, please.=
=A0 PS bounties don&#39;t work.<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br=
><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Jan 28, 2014 at 1:08 AM, Odinn Cybergue=
rrilla <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:odinn.cyberguerrilla@riseup.=
net" target=3D"_blank">odinn.cyberguerrilla@riseup.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote=
:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Greatly appreciate seeing this discussion oc=
cur. =A0This is something that<br>
potentially could be supported through a bounty - possibly a process BIP?<b=
r>
<br>
Possibly related: <a href=3D"https://gist.github.com/ABISprotocol/8515891" =
target=3D"_blank">https://gist.github.com/ABISprotocol/8515891</a><br>
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
&gt; Yes, recurring payments and subscriptions is a frequently-requested<br=
>
&gt; feature. =A0It needs a new BIP. =A0Here is an outline:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The situation is somewhat analogous to HTML5 local storage. =A0The rem=
ote<br>
&gt; (merchant) wants to initiate a persistent behavior. =A0This is bitcoin=
, so<br>
&gt; we<br>
&gt; have a &quot;push&quot; model for payment, and the user has complete c=
ontrol. =A0The<br>
&gt; merchant can, at most, send a &quot;subscription request.&quot; =A0The=
 user is<br>
&gt; responsible for making on-time payments after that point.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Centralized services like <a href=3D"http://coinbase.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">coinbase.com</a> or <a href=3D"http://blockchain.info" target=3D"_bla=
nk">blockchain.info</a> will have an<br>
&gt; easy<br>
&gt; time of it. =A0An automated program on their backend, sending payments=
 as<br>
&gt; needed, is easy and direct.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; More inventive services might employ multisig transactions, generating=
 and<br>
&gt; signing one signature of a TX, then sending that TX to the human for<b=
r>
&gt; further signing and publishing. =A0A few competing vendors could offer=
 bots<br>
&gt; that provide this signing service.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Decentralized, standalone wallet clients will be somewhat troublesome.=
 =A0We<br>
&gt; can store a local subscription request, and send recurring payments...=
 =A0if<br>
&gt; the wallet app is running. =A0If not, the user will be missing payment=
s,<br>
&gt; that<br>
&gt; perhaps they intended to make (rent!).<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Each of these solutions can be cancelled at any time by the user. =A0A=
s<br>
&gt; such,<br>
&gt; a courtesy &quot;subscription cancelled&quot; message sent to the merc=
hant is<br>
&gt; recommended. =A0User controls the usage of their money at all times, t=
he way<br>
&gt; things should be.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; And finally, you do not want to make it /too easy/ to send money over =
and<br>
&gt; over again. =A0From a human-interface perspective, a textual reminder =
to<br>
&gt; send<br>
&gt; money might be preferred over actual recurring payment automation:<br>
&gt; reminder<br>
&gt; email + manual spend inserts a bit of additional human thought and rev=
iew<br>
&gt; into the process, with all that entails.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; --<br>
&gt; Jeff Garzik<br>
&gt; Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist<br>
&gt; BitPay, Inc. =A0 =A0 =A0<a href=3D"https://bitpay.com/" target=3D"_bla=
nk">https://bitpay.com/</a><br>
</div></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">&gt; ------------------=
------------------------------------------------------------<br>
&gt; WatchGuard Dimension instantly turns raw network data into actionable<=
br>
&gt; security intelligence. It gives you real-time visual feedback on key<b=
r>
&gt; security issues and trends. =A0Skip the complicated setup - simply imp=
ort<br>
&gt; a virtual appliance and go from zero to informed in seconds.<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=3D123612991&a=
mp;iu=3D/4140/ostg.clktrk_______________________________________________" t=
arget=3D"_blank">http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=3D123612991&=
amp;iu=3D/4140/ostg.clktrk_______________________________________________</=
a><br>

&gt; Bitcoin-development mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net">Bitcoin-d=
evelopment@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-develo=
pment" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitco=
in-development</a><br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>Jeff Garzik=
<br>Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist<br>BitPay, Inc. =A0 =
=A0 =A0<a href=3D"https://bitpay.com/" target=3D"_blank">https://bitpay.com=
/</a>
</div>

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