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Sun, 12 Dec 2021 14:32:36 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mxplan6.mail.ovh.net (unknown [10.108.1.214]) by mo529.mail-out.ovh.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E0441D16B8EE; Sun, 12 Dec 2021 15:23:45 +0100 (CET) Received: from peersm.com (37.59.142.106) by DAG6EX1.mxp6.local (172.16.2.51) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.2375.17; Sun, 12 Dec 2021 15:23:45 +0100 Authentication-Results: garm.ovh; auth=pass (GARM-106R0068f5675b1-32d5-4bf2-a925-17b0a311eefc, F420CA8A9A0A3C3D6A19BAAB2A6020CBB13EF083) smtp.auth=aymeric@peersm.com X-OVh-ClientIp: 92.184.100.131 To: Karl , Bitcoin Protocol Discussion References: <1fbf0ef8b1b42979361b5df0b09c2dcd@willtech.com.au> <86d49c80-2f8f-245c-5fdb-17c6ca6b5f2b@peersm.com> From: Aymeric Vitte Message-ID: <10dcd9a9-0c39-7f4f-acde-04912a32e103@peersm.com> Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2021 15:23:44 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------480D5C2B51483B6B4A6745E3" X-Originating-IP: [37.59.142.106] X-ClientProxiedBy: DAG1EX2.mxp6.local (172.16.2.2) To DAG6EX1.mxp6.local (172.16.2.51) X-Ovh-Tracer-GUID: 9e29cdf1-2e87-4e3b-8c2b-599f98dda0e9 X-Ovh-Tracer-Id: 428123441390314394 X-VR-SPAMSTATE: OK X-VR-SPAMSCORE: 0 X-VR-SPAMCAUSE: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddrkeeigdeigecutefuodetggdotefrodftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfqggfjpdevjffgvefmvefgnecuuegrihhlohhuthemucehtddtnecunecujfgurhepuffvfhfhkffffgggjggtihesrgdtreertdefjeenucfhrhhomhepteihmhgvrhhitgcugghithhtvgcuoegrhihmvghrihgtsehpvggvrhhsmhdrtghomheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepgfffgeelveejheduuedtuedugefffeetheffudehfeefgeevudeijedvgeetteefnecuffhomhgrihhnpehlihhnkhgvughinhdrtghomhdpghhithhhuhgsrdgtohhmpdhpvggvrhhsmhdrtghomhenucfkpheptddrtddrtddrtddpfeejrdehledrudegvddruddtieenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhhouggvpehsmhhtphhouhhtpdhhvghlohepmhigphhlrghniedrmhgrihhlrdhovhhhrdhnvghtpdhinhgvtheptddrtddrtddrtddpmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpegrhihmvghrihgtsehpvggvrhhsmhdrtghomhdprhgtphhtthhopehgmhhkrghrlhesghhmrghilhdrtghomh X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 12 Dec 2021 14:45:36 +0000 Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Rebroadcast mechanism in Bitcoin P2P network X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2021 14:32:38 -0000 --------------480D5C2B51483B6B4A6745E3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Using the Tor network to bypass censorship for bitcoin can work but is a very poor solution, the Tor network is very centralized, very small, watched and controlled, with plenty of features that do not apply to other protocols than those made to be used with the Tor Browser, Pieter gave a simple example, that you can solve easily changing the circuits, the problem remains that you really need to be a super expert to escape all the dangers of the Tor network, not even sure it's possible unless you use something else than the Tor project code Believe it or not, node-Tor is a more than ten years old project (and not a duplicate of the Tor network), so I know what I am talking about, different studies of mine show also that the more you try to hide the more you can get caught, even on really decentralized networks like bittorrent, unlike another common belief that in such big networks it's difficult to track/deanonymize peers, it is not Extra measures like rebroadcasting can maybe add something, but back to the previous sentence, extra measures can also help to catch/track you if not well designed/thought What I am proposing since years, not only to bitcoin, is to use the Tor protocol independently of the Tor network, and from the browsers also acting as nodes (not to be misunderstood with the Tor Browser, this has nothing to do) probably someone one day will understand it Le 12/12/2021 =C3=A0 14:38, Karl a =C3=A9crit : > > > On Sun, Dec 12, 2021, 7:42 AM Aymeric Vitte via bitcoin-dev > > wrote: > > Indeed, I reiterate that using the Tor network for Bitcoin or > whatever protocol not related to the Tor Browser (ie browsing and > HS) does not make sense, for plenty of reasons > > > Please cite this. It is very hard to believe. > > Personally, I have encountered network blocking of bitcoin peers, and > Tor is one way to reconnect with the network when this happens. > > > Regardless, reasonable rebroadcasting of nonlocal transactions is a > hands-down good thing. This does not make them anonymous, but it does > make it a little harder to track their origin, and additionally it > makes their transmission more robust. > > Every extra measure is a good thing, as everything eventually fails. > --=20 Sophia-Antipolis, France LinkedIn: https://fr.linkedin.com/in/aymeric-vitte-05855b26 GitHub : https://www.github.com/Ayms Move your coins by yourself (browser version): https://peersm.com/wallet Bitcoin transactions made simple: https://github.com/Ayms/bitcoin-transac= tions torrent-live: https://github.com/Ayms/torrent-live node-Tor : https://www.github.com/Ayms/node-Tor Zcash wallets made simple: https://github.com/Ayms/zcash-wallets Bitcoin wallets made simple: https://github.com/Ayms/bitcoin-wallets Anti-spies and private torrents, dynamic blocklist: http://torrent-live.p= eersm.com Peersm : http://www.peersm.com --------------480D5C2B51483B6B4A6745E3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Using the Tor network to bypass censorship for bitcoin can work but is a very poor solution, the Tor network is very centralized, very small, watched and controlled, with plenty of features that do not apply to other protocols than those made to be used with the Tor Browser, Pieter gave a simple example, that you can solve easily changing the circuits, the problem remains that you really need to be a super expert to escape all the dangers of the Tor network, not even sure it's possible unless you use something else than the Tor project code

Believe it or not, node-Tor is a more than ten years old project (and not a duplicate of the Tor network), so I know what I am talking about, different studies of mine show also that the more you try to hide the more you can get caught, even on really decentralized networks like bittorrent, unlike another common belief that in such big networks it's difficult to track/deanonymize peers, it is not

Extra measures like rebroadcasting can maybe add something, but back to the previous sentence, extra measures can also help to catch/track you if not well designed/thought

What I am proposing since years, not only to bitcoin, is to use the Tor protocol independently of the Tor network, and from the browsers also acting as nodes (not to be misunderstood with the Tor Browser, this has nothing to do) probably someone one day will understand it

Le 12/12/2021 à 14:38, Karl a écrit :


On Sun, Dec 12, 2021, 7:42 AM Aymeric Vitte via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

Indeed, I reiterate that using the Tor network for Bitcoin or whatever protocol not related to the Tor Browser (ie browsing and HS) does not make sense, for plenty of reasons


Please cite this.  It is very hard to believe.

Personally, I have encountered network blocking of bitcoin peers, and Tor is one way to reconnect with the network when this happens.


Regardless, reasonable rebroadcasting of nonlocal transactions is a hands-down good thing.  This does not make them anonymous, but it does make it a little harder to track their origin, and additionally it makes their transmission more robust.

Every extra measure is a good thing, as everything eventually fails.

-- 
Sophia-Antipolis, France
LinkedIn: https://fr.linkedin.com/in/aymeric-vitte-05855b26
GitHub : https://www.github.com/Ayms
Move your coins by yourself (browser version): https://peersm.com/wallet
Bitcoin transactions made simple: https://github.com/Ayms/bitcoin-transactions
torrent-live: https://github.com/Ayms/torrent-live
node-Tor : https://www.github.com/Ayms/node-Tor
Zcash wallets made simple: https://github.com/Ayms/zcash-wallets
Bitcoin wallets made simple: https://github.com/Ayms/bitcoin-wallets
Anti-spies and private torrents, dynamic blocklist: http://torrent-live.peersm.com
Peersm : http://www.peersm.com
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