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Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 16:51:14 +0000
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From: Ricardo Filipe <ricardojdfilipe@gmail.com>
Cc: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
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Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
Precedence: list

so much discussion for a visual update...

make this a user experiment:
-give the user the possibility to use BTC/mBTC/uMTC
-retrieve the results after some time
-make the default the most used option


2014-03-14 16:15 GMT+00:00 Alex Morcos <morcos@gmail.com>:
> I think Mark makes some good arguments.
> I realize this would only add to the confusion, but...
> What if we did relabel 100 satoshis to be some new kind of unit ("bit" or
> whatever else), with a proper 3 letter code, and then from a user
> standpoint, where people are using mBTC, they could switch to using Kbits
> (ok thats obviously bad, but you get the idea) at the same nominal price.
> But accounting backends and so forth would operate in the "bit" base unit
> with 2 decimals of precision.
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 12:01 PM, Mark Friedenbach <mark@monetize.io> wro=
te:
>>
>> A cup of coffee in Tokyo costs about 55 yen. You see similar magnitude
>> numbers in both Chinas, Thailand, and other economically important East
>> Asian countries. Expect to pay hundreds of rupees in India, or thousands
>> of rupees in Indonesia.
>>
>> This concept that money should have low, single digits for everyday
>> prices is not just Western-centric, it's English-centric. An expresso in
>> Rome would have cost you a few (tens of?) thousand lira in recent
>> memory. It was pegging of the Euro to the U.S. dollar that brought
>> European states in line with the English-speaking world (who themselves
>> trace lineage to the pound sterling).
>>
>> No, there is no culturally-neutral common standards for currency and
>> pricing. But there are ill-advised, ill-informed "standards" in
>> accounting software that we nevertheless must live with. These software
>> packages do not handle more than two decimal places gracefully. That
>> gives technical justifications for moving to either uBTC or accounting
>> in Satoshis directly. An argument for uBTC is that it retains alignment
>> with the existing kBTC/BTC/mBTC/uBTC conventions.
>>
>> However another limitation of these accounting software practices is
>> that they do not always handle SI notation very well, particularly
>> sub-unit prefixes. By relabeling uBTC to be a new three-digit symbol
>> (XBT, XBC, IBT, NBC, or whatever--I really don't care), we are now fully
>> compliant with any software accounting package out there.
>>
>> We are still very, very early in the adoption period. These are changes
>> that could be made now simply by a few big players and/or the bitcoin
>> foundation changing their practice and their users following suit.
>>
>> On 03/14/2014 07:49 AM, Andreas Schildbach wrote:
>> > How much do you pay for an Espresso in your local currency?
>> >
>> > At least for the Euro and the Dollar, mBTC 3.56 is very close to what
>> > people would expect. Certainly more familiar than =C2=B5BTC 3558 or BT=
C
>> > 0.003578.
>> >
>> > Anyway, I was just sharing real-world experience: nobody is confused.
>> >
>> >
>> > On 03/14/2014 03:14 PM, Tamas Blummer wrote:
>> >> You give them a hard to interpret thing like mBTC and then wonder
>> >> why they rather look at local currency. Because the choices you
>> >> gave them are bad.
>> >>
>> >> I think Bitcoin would have a better chance to be percieved as a
>> >> currency of its own if it had prices and fractions like currencies
>> >> do.
>> >>
>> >> 3.558 mBTC or 0.003578 BTC will never be as accepted as 3558 bits
>> >> would be.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Tamas Blummer Bits of Proof
>> >>
>> >> On 14.03.2014, at 15:05, Andreas Schildbach <andreas@schildbach.de>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> btw. None of Bitcoin Wallet's users complained about confusion
>> >>> because of the mBTC switch. In contrast, I get many mails and
>> >>> questions if exchange rates happen to differ by >10%.
>> >>>
>> >>> I suspect nobody looks at the Bitcoin price. It's the amount in
>> >>> local currency that matters to the users.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On 03/13/2014 02:40 PM, Andreas Schildbach wrote:
>> >>>> Indeed. And users were crying for mBTC. Nobody was asking for
>> >>>> =C2=B5BTC.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I must admit I was not aware if this thread. I just watched
>> >>>> other wallets and at some point decided its time to switch to
>> >>>> mBTC.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On 03/13/2014 02:31 PM, Mike Hearn wrote:
>> >>>>> The standard has become mBTC and that's what was adopted.
>> >>>>> It's too late to try and sway this on a mailing list thread
>> >>>>> now.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 2:29 PM, Gary Rowe
>> >>>>> <g.rowe@froot.co.uk <mailto:g.rowe@froot.co.uk>> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> The MultiBit HD view is that this is a locale-sensitive
>> >>>>> presentation issue. As a result we offer a simple
>> >>>>> configuration panel giving pretty much every possible
>> >>>>> combination: icon, m+icon,  =CE=BC+icon, BTC, mBTC,  =CE=BCBTC, XB=
T,
>> >>>>> mXBT,  =CE=BCXBT, sat along with settings for leading/trailing
>> >>>>> symbol, commas, spaces and points. This allows anyone to
>> >>>>> customise to meet their own needs beyond the offered default.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> We apply the NIST guidelines for representation of SI unit
>> >>>>> symbols (i.e no conversion to native language, no RTL giving
>> >>>>> icon+m etc).
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Right now MultiBit HD is configured to use m+icon taken from
>> >>>>> the Font Awesome icon set. However reading earlier posts it
>> >>>>> seems that =CE=BC+icon is more sensible.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Let us know what you'd like.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Links: m+icon screenshot: http://imgur.com/a/WCDoG Font
>> >>>>> Awesome icon:
>> >>>>> http://fortawesome.github.io/Font-Awesome/icon/btc/ NIST SI
>> >>>>> guidelines: http://physics.nist.gov/Pubs/SP811/sec07.html
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> On 13 March 2014 12:56, Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@bitpay.com
>> >>>>> <mailto:jgarzik@bitpay.com>> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Resurrecting this topic.  Bitcoin Wallet moved to mBTC
>> >>>>> several weeks ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded like
>> >>>>> the consensus was uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which will
>> >>>>> happen-- may result in additional user confusion, thanks to
>> >>>>> yet another decimal place transition.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> On Sun, Nov 17, 2013 at 9:28 PM, Wendell <w@grabhive.com
>> >>>>> <mailto:w@grabhive.com>> wrote:
>> >>>>>> We're with uBTC too. Been waiting for the signal to do
>> >>>>>> this,
>> >>>>> let's do it right after the fee system is improved.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> -wendell
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> grabhive.com <http://grabhive.com> |
>> >>>>>> twitter.com/hivewallet
>> >>>>> <http://twitter.com/hivewallet> | gpg: 6C0C9411
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> On Nov 15, 2013, at 6:03 AM, Jeff Garzik wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Go straight to uBTC. Humans and existing computer
>> >>>>>>> systems
>> >>>>> handle numbers to
>> >>>>>>> the left of the decimals just fine (HK Dollars, Yen).
>> >>>>>>> The
>> >>>>> opposite is
>> >>>>>>> untrue (QuickBooks really does not like 3+ decimal
>> >>>>>>> places).
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> -- Jeff Garzik Bitcoin core developer and open source
>> >>>>> evangelist BitPay, Inc.      https://bitpay.com/
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------=
------------
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> > Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
>> >>>>> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph
>> >>>>> databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed
>> >>>>> leaders in the field, this first edition is now available.
>> >>>>> Download your free book today!
>> >>>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech
>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
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>> >>>>> <mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
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>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >
>> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
--------
>> >>>>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book "Graph
>> >>>>> Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases
>> >>>>> and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in
>> >>>>> the field, this first edition is now available. Download your
>> >>>>> free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech
>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> >>>>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
>> >>>>> <mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
>> >>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >
>> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
--------
>> >>>>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book "Graph
>> >>>>> Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and
>> >>>>> their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the
>> >>>>> field, this first edition is now available. Download your
>> >>>>> free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> >>>>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
>> >>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >
>> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
--------
>> >>>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book "Graph
>> >>>> Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and
>> >>>> their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the
>> >>>> field, this first edition is now available. Download your free
>> >>>> book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech
>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> >>>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
>> >>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>>
>> >
>> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
--------
>> >>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book "Graph
>> >>> Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and
>> >>> their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the
>> >>> field, this first edition is now available. Download your free
>> >>> book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> >>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
>> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------=
---------
>> >>
>> >>
>> > Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
>> >> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases
>> >> and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the
>> >> field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book
>> >> today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________ Bitcoin-development
>> >> mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
--------
>> > Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
>> > "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and
>> > their
>> > applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
>> > this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
>> > http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>> >
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------=
------
>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
>> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and the=
ir
>> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
>> this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and thei=
r
> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
> this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>