Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B51AB78D for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2016 18:33:53 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-qk0-f174.google.com (mail-qk0-f174.google.com [209.85.220.174]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BEB3715F for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2016 18:33:52 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-qk0-f174.google.com with SMTP id p74so211050750qka.0 for ; Wed, 03 Aug 2016 11:33:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=6KikuCRqJrlZYQnPN3OQEETI0TtTVgLKBuYDze++ZPg=; b=nHbaeO9YGTeO7fXkMvOo7gTKRYjzdFDliVdAi6vwVlj3U0h6L0Vqn6ZMDpEwjZpq9x 3htwJVaXIpPr3HmFOT9n2hg7uyfZLOZcbxEy1uU7ccr6VQPSgFeI/pEw8sz342eZ/rHm dOXTvG0MgajNCIaA7pQnrpvr6ke+lwD+oyFqn57gSQj8Tz3r3ztl4KyUbc4O3crble4q mdvjUjnOxU1P2i4nOSzUOe2lCnLwRux/mQ33sdP7BimAYaQvvMWy3LrQvEjpiVB2O20g 5Csum2uzTbF37arn+LzcYqrIu2Qhj9WFIgpItDc0X6/Q6Y0xomW3w/bYpCExMf9y3u74 OQoA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=6KikuCRqJrlZYQnPN3OQEETI0TtTVgLKBuYDze++ZPg=; b=Ehe/Dnx/SE8hLiyCouDVHI1CtKb0avlQYYYfhZnwX+bK/48jWfq5lTnd+mWVT9G2bF gurWgUnk3Tp0J+fTjKCAKwOjnGnUEqtpm/msyNY35wte8YPSNy+jqgBUU8oeYiv0imSj ebK1voTpcqxEFWmx1zU9LSdjlE3i4zIbAooJv/utKFp+t087E1sI2k7iIupi3rSYN88e tGGfpl0gdDpeQ/IWvoDtic4bJpt06Y6YC4JczWwQ5tUis1Rcrvt5VdQNmkdB2929FSXt d9c5kGpQnYzysXjM1CkkintgilYcvkIG+MNqRDAbqnhFIxTgnQDdPPmvNM1XRqRmUpbB 8xvQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AEkoouuV54MAbhTXAUQz+lUpSEG/qyAlBluyOJA0yD8tbUZva9q00MS1YrLyaytZi1TP4Ag74jcCB0ZFaYcJJQ== X-Received: by 10.55.221.85 with SMTP id n82mr1417470qki.236.1470249231785; Wed, 03 Aug 2016 11:33:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: James MacWhyte Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2016 18:33:41 +0000 Message-ID: To: Marc Larue , Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1149d1de31259e05392f135a X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Fees and Accounts X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2016 18:33:53 -0000 --001a1149d1de31259e05392f135a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 From what I've seen, most people build their own account system separately (including fee management) and just use bitcoind to send, receive, and verify transactions. It's not meant to be a drop-in solution for running an entire bitcoin deposit and withdrawal system, it just provides the bare tools required to build your own. If you need a pre-built solution, there are companies that provide those types of services as a platform (BitGo, for example). On Wed, Aug 3, 2016, 11:25 Marc Larue via bitcoin-dev < bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > Hi, > > I have 2 problems with bitcoind that separately are not a problem but > together they make the platform unusable for many projects. > > If I have accounts I need to make sure the account holders do not > overcharge their account. To do this I can now use "createrawtransaction() > + fundrawtransaction() + signrawtransaction()" and then make sure the > transaction can be paid by an account. > > But since you deprecated the accounts and there is no > sendrawtransactionfrom() method; I either have to build my own account > system (this is no picknick btw, since you need to track all incoming > funds to all addresses and having an integrated account system in bitcoind > is 100% necessary to do this effectively). > > Or I might be able to go ahead and speculate that you will not be able to > untangle the account code and hack my bitcoind to have a sendfrom with a > fixed fee parameter that overrides the size multiplication and I just do > the math before I send hoping that the transactions go through (this is > bad but better than having accounts overcharge because they send dust that > induce high fees). > > I understand the privacy problems with using accounts for off-chain > microstransactions but currently it's the best workable option. > > I hope you understand that I'm not trolling here, I have been mining since > 2011 on FPGAs and built bitcoinbankbook.com 2 years ago. When I descovered > that once transactions will require fees (back then they didn't) and that > your system is not able to handle fees with accounts, I stopped developing > everything related to bitcoin. > > There are probably 100s if not 1000s of developers in the same situation. > > You can't just deprecate accounts like that because nobody likes the code. > Without accounts bitcoind is only a person-to-person manual client. > > To build many-to-many automatic "organisations" on top of bitcoind you > need accounts and you need fees that are predictable. > > Kind Regards, > > /marc > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > --001a1149d1de31259e05392f135a Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

From what I've seen, most people build their own account= system separately (including fee management) and just use bitcoind to send= , receive, and verify transactions. It's not meant to be a drop-in solu= tion for running an entire bitcoin deposit and withdrawal system, it just p= rovides the bare tools required to build your own. If you need a pre-built = solution, there are companies that provide those types of services as a pla= tform (BitGo, for example).


On Wed, Aug 3, 2016, 11:25 = Marc Larue via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
=
Hi,

I have 2 problems with bitcoind that separately are not a problem but
together they make the platform unusable for many projects.

If I have accounts I need to make sure the account holders do not
overcharge their account. To do this I can now use "createrawtransacti= on()
+ fundrawtransaction() + signrawtransaction()" and then make sure the<= br> transaction can be paid by an account.

But since you deprecated the accounts and there is no
sendrawtransactionfrom() method; I either have to build my own account
system (this is no picknick btw, since you need to track all incoming
funds to all addresses and having an integrated account system in bitcoind<= br> is 100% necessary to do this effectively).

Or I might be able to go ahead and speculate that you will not be able to untangle the account code and hack my bitcoind to have a sendfrom with a fixed fee parameter that overrides the size multiplication and I just do the math before I send hoping that the transactions go through (this is
bad but better than having accounts overcharge because they send dust that<= br> induce high fees).

I understand the privacy problems with using accounts for off-chain
microstransactions but currently it's the best workable option.

I hope you understand that I'm not trolling here, I have been mining si= nce
2011 on FPGAs and built bitcoinbankbook.com 2 years ago. When I descov= ered
that once transactions will require fees (back then they didn't) and th= at
your system is not able to handle fees with accounts, I stopped developing<= br> everything related to bitcoin.

There are probably 100s if not 1000s of developers in the same situation.
You can't just deprecate accounts like that because nobody likes the co= de.
Without accounts bitcoind is only a person-to-person manual client.

To build many-to-many automatic "organisations" on top of bitcoin= d you
need accounts and you need fees that are predictable.

Kind Regards,

/marc
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
= bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail= man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
--001a1149d1de31259e05392f135a--