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References: <alpine.LNX.2.00.1608031152530.359@rupy.se>
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LNX.2.00.1608031152530.359@rupy.se>
From: James MacWhyte <macwhyte@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2016 18:33:41 +0000
Message-ID: <CAH+Axy5jSRVbAw_MaJArYp9_nTB8Ws6QZ5hoq4rfBZw80RciFA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Marc Larue <marc@rupy.se>, 
	Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1149d1de31259e05392f135a
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Fees and Accounts
Precedence: list

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From what I've seen, most people build their own account system separately
(including fee management) and just use bitcoind to send, receive, and
verify transactions. It's not meant to be a drop-in solution for running an
entire bitcoin deposit and withdrawal system, it just provides the bare
tools required to build your own. If you need a pre-built solution, there
are companies that provide those types of services as a platform (BitGo,
for example).

On Wed, Aug 3, 2016, 11:25 Marc Larue via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I have 2 problems with bitcoind that separately are not a problem but
> together they make the platform unusable for many projects.
>
> If I have accounts I need to make sure the account holders do not
> overcharge their account. To do this I can now use "createrawtransaction()
> + fundrawtransaction() + signrawtransaction()" and then make sure the
> transaction can be paid by an account.
>
> But since you deprecated the accounts and there is no
> sendrawtransactionfrom() method; I either have to build my own account
> system (this is no picknick btw, since you need to track all incoming
> funds to all addresses and having an integrated account system in bitcoind
> is 100% necessary to do this effectively).
>
> Or I might be able to go ahead and speculate that you will not be able to
> untangle the account code and hack my bitcoind to have a sendfrom with a
> fixed fee parameter that overrides the size multiplication and I just do
> the math before I send hoping that the transactions go through (this is
> bad but better than having accounts overcharge because they send dust that
> induce high fees).
>
> I understand the privacy problems with using accounts for off-chain
> microstransactions but currently it's the best workable option.
>
> I hope you understand that I'm not trolling here, I have been mining since
> 2011 on FPGAs and built bitcoinbankbook.com 2 years ago. When I descovered
> that once transactions will require fees (back then they didn't) and that
> your system is not able to handle fees with accounts, I stopped developing
> everything related to bitcoin.
>
> There are probably 100s if not 1000s of developers in the same situation.
>
> You can't just deprecate accounts like that because nobody likes the code.
> Without accounts bitcoind is only a person-to-person manual client.
>
> To build many-to-many automatic "organisations" on top of bitcoind you
> need accounts and you need fees that are predictable.
>
> Kind Regards,
>
> /marc
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>

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<p dir=3D"ltr">From what I&#39;ve seen, most people build their own account=
 system separately (including fee management) and just use bitcoind to send=
, receive, and verify transactions. It&#39;s not meant to be a drop-in solu=
tion for running an entire bitcoin deposit and withdrawal system, it just p=
rovides the bare tools required to build your own. If you need a pre-built =
solution, there are companies that provide those types of services as a pla=
tform (BitGo, for example).</p>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, Aug 3, 2016, 11:25 =
Marc Larue via bitcoin-dev &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfou=
ndation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi,<br>
<br>
I have 2 problems with bitcoind that separately are not a problem but<br>
together they make the platform unusable for many projects.<br>
<br>
If I have accounts I need to make sure the account holders do not<br>
overcharge their account. To do this I can now use &quot;createrawtransacti=
on()<br>
+ fundrawtransaction() + signrawtransaction()&quot; and then make sure the<=
br>
transaction can be paid by an account.<br>
<br>
But since you deprecated the accounts and there is no<br>
sendrawtransactionfrom() method; I either have to build my own account<br>
system (this is no picknick btw, since you need to track all incoming<br>
funds to all addresses and having an integrated account system in bitcoind<=
br>
is 100% necessary to do this effectively).<br>
<br>
Or I might be able to go ahead and speculate that you will not be able to<b=
r>
untangle the account code and hack my bitcoind to have a sendfrom with a<br=
>
fixed fee parameter that overrides the size multiplication and I just do<br=
>
the math before I send hoping that the transactions go through (this is<br>
bad but better than having accounts overcharge because they send dust that<=
br>
induce high fees).<br>
<br>
I understand the privacy problems with using accounts for off-chain<br>
microstransactions but currently it&#39;s the best workable option.<br>
<br>
I hope you understand that I&#39;m not trolling here, I have been mining si=
nce<br>
2011 on FPGAs and built <a href=3D"http://bitcoinbankbook.com" rel=3D"noref=
errer" target=3D"_blank">bitcoinbankbook.com</a> 2 years ago. When I descov=
ered<br>
that once transactions will require fees (back then they didn&#39;t) and th=
at<br>
your system is not able to handle fees with accounts, I stopped developing<=
br>
everything related to bitcoin.<br>
<br>
There are probably 100s if not 1000s of developers in the same situation.<b=
r>
<br>
You can&#39;t just deprecate accounts like that because nobody likes the co=
de.<br>
Without accounts bitcoind is only a person-to-person manual client.<br>
<br>
To build many-to-many automatic &quot;organisations&quot; on top of bitcoin=
d you<br>
need accounts and you need fees that are predictable.<br>
<br>
Kind Regards,<br>
<br>
/marc<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">=
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail=
man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

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