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mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=none; dmarc=none; dkim=none; arc=none Received: from PS2P216MB1089.KORP216.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:1096:301:52::11) by PU4P216MB1370.KORP216.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:1096:301:a2::10) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4649.14; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 08:44:42 +0000 Received: from PS2P216MB1089.KORP216.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::4c6c:a1dc:c8c0:fed2]) by PS2P216MB1089.KORP216.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::4c6c:a1dc:c8c0:fed2%3]) with mapi id 15.20.4649.014; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 08:44:42 +0000 From: LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH To: "bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" , lisa neigut Thread-Topic: [bitcoin-dev] death to the mempool, long live the mempool Thread-Index: AQHXyjxhpu8HKywNhEGV4U0LSP0Vl6vmiFrX Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 08:44:42 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-AU, en-US Content-Language: en-AU X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: suggested_attachment_session_id: c2c5f273-1199-66da-c4d9-333ab4ac67fd x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-tmn: [WdnSLaLNV7adFgu3HE+eRQnbObqMeSaa] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 6f3f1743-e768-4ea3-1248-08d999260551 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: PU4P216MB1370: x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; 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boundary="_000_PS2P216MB1089038AABE45CE8FF36E32F9D859PS2P216MB1089KORP_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: sct-15-20-3174-20-msonline-outlook-af45a.templateTenant X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: PS2P216MB1089.KORP216.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: 00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 6f3f1743-e768-4ea3-1248-08d999260551 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 27 Oct 2021 08:44:42.5865 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-rms-persistedconsumerorg: 00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: PU4P216MB1370 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 16:52:43 +0000 Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] death to the mempool, long live the mempool X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 08:44:49 -0000 --_000_PS2P216MB1089038AABE45CE8FF36E32F9D859PS2P216MB1089KORP_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Good Afternoon, No. This has been discussed previously and eliminated as there is no proof = that the transaction can exist without population through the mempool. As a= method of payment not hearing about a transaction until it is possibly min= ed three months later as I have experienced is non-functional, there were d= iscussions in this mailing list. The purpose of the mempool is not gossip i= t is gossip and any node technically can mine if they do. KING JAMES HRMH Great British Empire Regards, The Australian LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH (& HMRH) of Hougun Manor & Glencoe & British Empire MR. Damian A. James Williamson Wills et al. Willtech www.willtech.com.au www.go-overt.com duigco.org DUIGCO API and other projects m. 0487135719 f. +61261470192 This email does not constitute a general advice. Please disregard this emai= l if misdelivered. ________________________________ From: bitcoin-dev on behalf= of lisa neigut via bitcoin-dev Sent: Tuesday, 26 October 2021 1:56 PM To: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org Subject: [bitcoin-dev] death to the mempool, long live the mempool Hi all, In a recent conversation with @glozow, I had the realization that the mempo= ol is obsolete and should be eliminated. Instead, users should submit their transactions directly to mining pools, p= referably over an anonymous communication network such as tor. This can eas= ily be achieved by mining pools running a tor onion node for this express p= urpose (or via a lightning network extension etc) Mempools make sense in a world where mining is done by a large number of pa= rticipating nodes, eg where the block template is constructed by a majority= of the participants on the network. In this case, it is necessary to socia= lize pending transaction data to all participants, as you don=92t know whic= h participant will be constructing the winning block template. In reality however, mempool relay is unnecessary where the majority of hash= power and thus block template creation is concentrated in a semi-restricted= set. Removing the mempool would greatly reduce the bandwidth requirement for run= ning a node, keep intentionality of transactions private until confirmed/ir= revocable, and naturally resolve all current issues inherent in package rel= ay and rbf rules. It also resolves the recent minimum relay questions, as r= elay is no longer a concern for unmined transactions. Provided the number of block template producing actors remains beneath, say= 1000, it=92d be quite feasible to publish a list of tor endpoints that nod= es can independently + directly submit their transactions to. In fact, mer= ely allowing users to select their own list of endpoints to use alternative= ly to the mempool would be a low effort starting point for the eventual rep= lacement. On the other hand, removing the mempool would greatly complicate solo minin= g and would also make BetterHash proposals, which move the block template c= onstruction away from a centralized mining pool back to the individual mine= r, much more difficult. It also makes explicit the target for DoS attacks. A direct communication channel between block template construction venues a= nd transaction proposers also provides a venue for direct feedback wrt acce= ptable feerates at the time, which both makes transaction confirmation time= lines less variable as well as provides block producers a mechanism for (in= dependently) enforcing their own minimum security budget. In other words, e= xpressing a minimum acceptable feerate for continued operation. Initial feerate estimation would need to be based on published blocks, not = pending transactions (as this information would no longer be available), or= from direct interactions with block producers. ~niftynei --_000_PS2P216MB1089038AABE45CE8FF36E32F9D859PS2P216MB1089KORP_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Good Afternoon,

No. This has been discussed previously and eliminated as there is no proof = that the transaction can exist without population through the mempool. As a= method of payment not hearing about a transaction until it is possibly min= ed three months later as I have experienced is non-functional, there were discussions in this mailing list= . The purpose of the mempool is not gossip it is gossip and any node techni= cally can mine if they do.

KING JAMES HRMH
Great British Empire

Regards,
The Australian
LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH (& HMRH)
of Hougun Manor & Glencoe & British Empire
MR. Damian A. James Williamson
Wills

et al.

 
Willtech
www.willtech.com.au
www.go-overt.com
duigco.org DUIGCO API
and other projects
 

m. 0487135719
f. +61261470192


This email does not constitute a general advice. Please disregard this emai= l if misdelivered.
From: bitcoin-dev <bit= coin-dev-bounces@lists.linuxfoundation.org> on behalf of lisa neigut via= bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Sent: Tuesday, 26 October 2021 1:56 PM
To: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org <bitcoin-dev@lists.linu= xfoundation.org>
Subject: [bitcoin-dev] death to the mempool, long live the mempool
 
Hi all,

In a recent conversation with @glozow, I had the realizat= ion that the mempool is obsolete and should be eliminated.

Instead, users should submit their transactions directly = to mining pools, preferably over an anonymous communication network such as= tor. This can easily be achieved by mining pools running a tor onion node = for this express purpose (or via a lightning network extension etc)

Mempools make sense in a world where mining is done by a = large number of participating nodes, eg where the block template is constru= cted by a majority of the participants on the network. In this case, it is = necessary to socialize pending transaction data to all participants, as you don=92t know which participant will be co= nstructing the winning block template.

In reality however, mempool relay is unnecessary where th= e majority of hashpower and thus block template creation is concentrated in= a semi-restricted set. 

Removing the mempool would greatly reduce the bandwidth r= equirement for running a node, keep intentionality of transactions private = until confirmed/irrevocable, and naturally resolve all current issues inher= ent in package relay and rbf rules. It also resolves the recent minimum relay questions, as relay is no longer= a concern for unmined transactions.

Provided the number of block template producing actors re= mains beneath, say 1000, it=92d be quite feasible to publish a list of tor = endpoints that nodes can independently  + directly submit their transa= ctions to. In fact, merely allowing users to select their own list of endpoints to use alternatively to the mempool = would be a low effort starting point for the eventual replacement.

On the other hand, removing the mempool would greatly com= plicate solo mining and would also make BetterHash proposals, which move th= e block template construction away from a centralized mining pool back to t= he individual miner, much more difficult. It also makes explicit the target for DoS attacks.

A direct communication channel between block template con= struction venues and transaction proposers also provides a venue for direct= feedback wrt acceptable feerates at the time, which both makes transaction= confirmation timelines less variable as well as provides block producers a mechanism for (independently) enforc= ing their own minimum security budget. In other words, expressing a minimum= acceptable feerate for continued operation.

Initial feerate estimation would need to be based on publ= ished blocks, not pending transactions (as this information would no longer= be available), or from direct interactions with block producers.


~niftynei
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