Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0A3111BB for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2015 12:45:18 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-ob0-f176.google.com (mail-ob0-f176.google.com [209.85.214.176]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 65D4313E for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2015 12:45:17 +0000 (UTC) Received: by obdeg2 with SMTP id eg2so29761696obd.0 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2015 05:45:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=rLp9T2tlr0BN/fI4S6/ek4Voh1hWLsxuA0qKIlKsNms=; b=z5VAQeBy/OUkIkhSrFuBHi0OoGTrnl2BI0gr1ZLaaAYB7ncVXvlokuVC7iE5mMn3rj Q0tQsrJzmSMs0JLOOdjl/NS0ys4PD99+hXQNwryXJmCIVuch9VjdqZmqk7lURFWoNjc7 oNaHpXpyrqZVzglQ+1mul6VIeSflxFZ9f5FkHe/ASjrwbw9DUugnhhJMd/9lnnG1LOlB EgvEtFicw7ggz0gFj2a53g59yCmG/nfym51fomWBhO6xewT0uVlmkkltdDFVZzYMaIfi /6XvxTzQcZXdcC/Z4kHl6n58YuZCYTNDVqrXagGKBCJK6vrFu76h7pdYui3U9/cir5dv 8Sag== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.60.69.200 with SMTP id g8mr44795267oeu.40.1438260316779; Thu, 30 Jul 2015 05:45:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.76.177.164 with HTTP; Thu, 30 Jul 2015 05:45:16 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <543015348.4948849.1438178962054.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <55B959A2.9020402@sky-ip.org> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2015 08:45:16 -0400 Message-ID: From: Ivan Brightly To: Adam Back Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11333a3646bbed051c1713aa X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org Cc: Bitcoin Dev Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] =?utf-8?q?R=C4=83spuns=3A_Personal_opinion_on_the_f?= =?utf-8?q?ee_market_from_a_worried_local_trader?= X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Development Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2015 12:45:18 -0000 --001a11333a3646bbed051c1713aa Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 One thing that the below assumption doesn't appear to take into account is user demand for quick confirmations. I haven't fully thought out the game theory on this but here goes: Example: if 75% of hashing power accepts 'medium' fee transactions while 25% is willing to accept low (or any) fee transactions, then a user paying a lower fee wishing to get their transaction included in the next block runs a ~75% chance that their transaction won't be included. Users desiring the most reliably fast confirmations are better off by paying the minimum fee that a majority of miners will accept. Miners breaking ranks and accepting lower fees only affects users who aren't sufficiently interested in quicker confirmations. As long as a majority of miners 'collude', they will likely be able to keep the average fees higher than miners with the lower costs of operations might be willing to accept. On Thu, Jul 30, 2015 at 12:00 AM, Adam Back via bitcoin-dev < bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > On 29 July 2015 at 20:41, Ryan Butler via bitcoin-dev > wrote: > > Does an unlimited blocksize imply the lack of a fee market? Isn't every > > miner able to set their minimum accepted fee or transaction acceptance > > algorithm? > > The assumption is that wont work because any miner can break ranks and > do so profitably, so to expect otherwise is to expect oligopoly > behaviour which is the sort of antithesis of a decentralised mining > system. It's in fact a similar argument as to why decentralisation of > mining provides policy neutrality: some miner somewhere with some > hashrate will process your transaction even if some other miners are > by policy deciding not to mine it. It is also similar reason why free > transactions are processed today - policies vary and this is good for > ensuring many types of transaction get processed. > > Adam > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > --001a11333a3646bbed051c1713aa Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
One thing that the below assumption doesn't appear to = take into account is user demand for quick confirmations. I haven't ful= ly thought out the game theory on this but here goes:

Ex= ample: if 75% of hashing power accepts 'medium' fee transactions wh= ile 25% is willing to accept low (or any) fee transactions, then a user pay= ing a lower fee wishing to get their transaction included in the next block= runs a ~75% chance that their transaction won't be included.

Users desiring the most reliably fast confirmations are bet= ter off by paying the minimum fee that a majority of miners will accept. Mi= ners breaking ranks and accepting lower fees only affects users who aren= 9;t sufficiently interested in quicker confirmations. As long as a majority= of miners 'collude', they will likely be able to keep the average = fees higher than miners with the lower costs of operations might be willing= to accept.

On= Thu, Jul 30, 2015 at 12:00 AM, Adam Back via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
On 29 July 2015 at 20:41, Ryan Butler via bitcoin-d= ev
<bitcoin-dev@li= sts.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> Does an unlimited blocksize imply the lack of a fee market?=C2=A0 Isn&= #39;t every
> miner able to set their minimum accepted fee or transaction acceptance=
> algorithm?

The assumption is that wont work because any miner can break ranks and
do so profitably, so to expect otherwise is to expect oligopoly
behaviour which is the sort of antithesis of a decentralised mining
system.=C2=A0 It's in fact a similar argument as to why decentralisatio= n of
mining provides policy neutrality: some miner somewhere with some
hashrate will process your transaction even if some other miners are
by policy deciding not to mine it.=C2=A0 It is also similar reason why free=
transactions are processed today - policies vary and this is good for
ensuring many types of transaction get processed.

Adam
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
bitcoin-dev@lists.= linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail= man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev

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