Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.osuosl.org (smtp1.osuosl.org [140.211.166.138]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D85EC0012 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 20:11:08 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp1.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA51984772 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 20:11:07 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: smtp1.osuosl.org (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from smtp1.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp1.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rOqoYH9Y-FW1 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 20:11:03 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0 Received: from mail-ed1-x52d.google.com (mail-ed1-x52d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52d]) by smtp1.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A550284543 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 20:11:03 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-ed1-x52d.google.com with SMTP id b15so25784716edn.4 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 13:11:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=6Zm4gPcXyWqamwFANBa+l4xloZoFCTcS5fri5ISJfSM=; b=ICntyvOrOcZkD3juwUl1OKNPZQQowYxQ0cec3GGe+VYzzc+DH3IRahe1pptB14dF/S IQUtUkcHyn6eCRh6iTHqKz6Cd0gu9zE3Zb1AW7fysG0DcY5EDKvKyk1+wK32YXmaLceE wtHtt5JAb8cbMzLqo9Erd63mgrWFOUBnDg0GTU01UnYInp0xwLXJBy+4JhmvNovAiFDl +P5Wa2PBPQwfqUBhcKyL7g35dgpOfH1YlM6SiYaq70x/EyrvKEZD000QnwltUe9LM77/ UlOH2LP0ntp+8QLEQ9hapfffHa4pTuWMl+dSGAFFvL/LwWi5ry45zB6WwmqLte3ciAXK yrag== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=6Zm4gPcXyWqamwFANBa+l4xloZoFCTcS5fri5ISJfSM=; b=1X8JSMJLLXbWROQza+2BPv6UNkDrSxAhgunTiL+EevRcX6OgAD7hLoIupKj8/p53tf WJOl4AwRC16UgDtOeH+c5yGlrBH2i2nnN1WKie11hxF/T13H2Nhm0IuNRtuDL45Vlkf0 jv1IHD3QTakxoGBGmn7SlIfz61P1kcfEEpAIWc/gTEinWn03j1UKJiiO8xs+wPdjRKtU hgNJApqvU6kScivo+q7kJrotU7PKJtcCIYpX0Aa/PebGaIJjrKyy33+zrdF7FAsA/8zK NMhF3hbgHY4HrwAWNpCv5jWfxcVoQgpjx00BLZ6K4GaFjgafCB+Is/JJ/kpgvtSLReFi MxKQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532rNipSyRifgCKM4qjnIK4zbRWWnke3N9LgNn+TXBrgzBYl0rua F8CEoPnDQXcwLFc+FWtmFxauccHGh+idC1nG6AZ9Uc5F X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxNg0mX09ukRMU13w1yyb1CfffGAuirm1XcxSzuxAMIw8ZFnpr0xEA4UOOx87mxICquGJ6ukM50/xy3rmyZLj8= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:1e88:b0:419:746e:fb05 with SMTP id f8-20020a0564021e8800b00419746efb05mr12662742edf.307.1648671061662; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 13:11:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Billy Tetrud Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 15:10:49 -0500 Message-ID: To: pushd , Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000fb5e4c05db75240c" X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 20:44:53 +0000 Cc: Anthony Towns Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Speedy Trial X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 20:11:08 -0000 --000000000000fb5e4c05db75240c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" @Pushd > Speedy trial makes it worse by misleading lot of bitcoin users including miners to consider signaling as voting and majority votes decide if a soft fork gets activated No it does not. This narrative is the worst. A bad explanation of speedy trial can mislead people into thinking miner signalling is how Bitcoin upgrades are voted in. But a bad explanation can explain anything badly. The solution is not to change how we engineer soft forks, it's to explain speedy trial better to this imaginary group of important people that think miner signaling is voting. We shouldn't change how we engineer Bitcoin because of optics. I completely object to that point continuing to be used. On Wed, Mar 30, 2022, 05:36 pushd via bitcoin-dev < bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > > Any case where a flawed proposal makes it through getting activation > parameters set and released, but doesn't achieve supermajority hashpower > support is made worse by bip8/lot=true in comparison to speedy trial. > > - Flawed proposal making it through activation is a failure of review > process > > - Supermajority hashpower percentage decided by bitcoin core developers > can choose to not follow old or new consensus rules at any point > > - Speedy trial makes it worse by misleading lot of bitcoin users including > miners to consider signaling as voting and majority votes decide if a soft > fork gets activated > > - BIP 8/LOT=TRUE keeps things simple. Miners need to follow consensus > rules as they do right now if they wish to mine blocks for subsidy and fees. > > > Note: Mining pools or individual miners can participate in soft fork > discussions regardless of activation method and share their concern which > can be evaluated based on technical merits. > > > pushd > --- > > parallel lines meet at infinity? > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > --000000000000fb5e4c05db75240c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
@Pushd

>= =C2=A0Speedy trial makes= it worse by misleading lot of bitcoin users including miners to consider s= ignaling as=C2=A0voting and majority votes decide if a soft fork gets activ= ated

No it does not. This narrative is the worst. A bad explan= ation of speedy trial can mislead people into thinking miner signalling is = how Bitcoin upgrades are voted in. But a bad explanation can explain anythi= ng badly. The solution is not to change how we engineer soft forks, it'= s to explain speedy trial better to this imaginary group of important peopl= e that think miner signaling is voting.=C2=A0

=
We shouldn't change how we engineer Bitcoin because of optics= . I completely object to that point continuing to be used.

On Wed, Mar 30, 2022, 05:36 pushd via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.or= g> wrote:
>=C2=A0Any case where a flawed propo= sal makes it through getting activation
parameters set and= released, but doesn't achieve supermajority hashpower
support is made worse by bip8/lot=3Dtrue in comparison to speedy trial.

<= span style=3D"font-family:arial;font-size:14px">- Flawed proposal making it= through activation is a failure of review process

- Supermajority hashpower percentage decided by bitcoin = core developers can choose to not follow old or new consensus rules at any = point

- Speedy trial makes it worse by misleading lot = of bitcoin users including miners to consider signaling as=C2=A0voting and = majority votes decide if a soft fork gets activated

- BIP 8/LOT=3DTRUE keeps things simple. Miners n= eed to follow consensus rules as they do right now if they wish to mine blo= cks for subsidy and fees.


Note: Mining pools or = individual miners can participate in soft fork discussions regardless of ac= tivation method and share their concern which can be evaluated based on tec= hnical merits.

=
pushd
---

parallel lines meet at infinity?
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