Return-Path: Received: from smtp2.osuosl.org (smtp2.osuosl.org [140.211.166.133]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5961BC000E for ; Tue, 22 Jun 2021 17:46:12 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp2.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A6A54020C for ; Tue, 22 Jun 2021 17:46:12 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: smtp2.osuosl.org (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from smtp2.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp2.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 83XyBPpNabrq for ; Tue, 22 Jun 2021 17:46:11 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0 Received: from mail-ed1-x532.google.com (mail-ed1-x532.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::532]) by smtp2.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D0A58400E8 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 2021 17:46:10 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-ed1-x532.google.com with SMTP id q14so3520657eds.5 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 2021 10:46:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=3dQJOcHKEitLK8z8BLO8UaLr/dIZb7+V+3F+vzhZ2f4=; b=gbttCzz8i0uGcEB1dcLZamfCUMrUWYl8lGEPIei2T70eRW6GV/Nb64X0czlBvyS246 wvk/DZ6I9ESpugCLBxwmt92qjUUgx6VUtkHjhWRNOCMLt3ylpHhP1T+a4Yu7qVtJIS7l NXE1h4/VUJATeTRABEfHyTvriZFB1lXuSB+Wzl+kacAW0/7rEOPDpwMm2j6r5UmPoTfp 9HEV7n6HQdfmRYt8rM+MF3Y/5dpgl7ojRcLA/WBh0gL3viJjLR4dBQijtbTi9Z0sBtnt 0eKkmGeUuEpT2XEbk1aAOiq0ItwdwZMVAImpUzT8t2rP7Gb944RAfmcTxK9ZGip0ytfi 6CFA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=3dQJOcHKEitLK8z8BLO8UaLr/dIZb7+V+3F+vzhZ2f4=; b=OqGJdkdVRP7o8vbX+g9gJI0g73kYnh+Xx4lqFHnLVUk/0gDJWQtY9bozDMmbYtEqE1 GL4ekkbHnILSkfArsunbLb+rv/FnTm/ioYQ4cfNjxS4rVU58NGmZhU7ME+dEDluKpMK8 PwxdKuhfxD0LY3BhgfDzcQ7cjH6dkbnkN59pVvGuBAkW3YwxJLtdg9+ntz5S0x5l5qjI 7wgrpCm/kF4RQkHNAGwFDtZZEUdp+EvPTGLc9hp33l+1pYHl6vnYqG2V+6DnJw4TVKaM b0dkFfA7mGYlBCVq1fld1eCJeQIom2Vvqrf+PIvr0cjCEmDMftwMqDwZ97illuRXBvJD C9AQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531SNsN3UlzAAailoKDHmWX7RyazmToB9Zn5oA0lDULv8msh6lqz 7py6tOR1eBizCRmWcB1bqUlGoc1Sh16ZCHppAeU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyroA7FvFv0QIzQOgcHhneNV8MRDB4zG38BGUIfLYBk+L6vIR9oiJXozo2+4ZX9uGbd7hZKPSNPtlkINUYl0nk= X-Received: by 2002:a50:b2c5:: with SMTP id p63mr6641699edd.5.1624383968977; Tue, 22 Jun 2021 10:46:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6do5xN2g5LPnFeM55iJ-4C4MyXOu_KeXxy68Xt4dJQMhi3LJ8ZrLICmEUlh8JGfDmsDG12m1JDAh0e0huwK_MlyKpdfn22ru3zsm7lYLfBo=@protonmail.com> <30li5MRxkBhzLxLmzRnHkCdn8n3Feqegi-FLZ5VDyIX2uRJfq4kVtrsLxw6dUtsM1atYV25IfIfDaQp4s2Dn2vc8LvYkhbAsn0v_Fwjerpw=@protonmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Billy Tetrud Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 10:45:51 -0700 Message-ID: To: Cloud Strife , Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000073282e05c55e5d4a" X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 23 Jun 2021 08:30:14 +0000 Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Opinion on proof of stake in future X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 17:46:12 -0000 --00000000000073282e05c55e5d4a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > Barrier to entry in PoS is being given permission by the previous owner of a token The idea that proof of stake is not permissionless is completely invalid. It pains me to see such an argument here. Perhaps we can come to an agreement by being more specific. I'd like to propose the following: Premise: There is a healthy exchange market for PoS Coin X with tens of thousands of participants bidding to buy and sell the coin for other currencies on the market. If the premise above is true, then there is no significant permission needed to enter the market for minting blocks for PoS Coin X. If you make a bid on someone's coins and they don't like you and refuse, you can move on to any one of the other tens of thousands of people in that marketplace. Would you agree, Cloud Strife, that this situation couldn't be considered "permissioned"? If not, consider that participation in *any* decentralized system requires the permission of at least one user in that system. If there are thousands of bitcoin public nodes, you require the permission of at least one of them to participate in bitcoin. No one considers bitcoin "permissioned" because of this. Do you agree? On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 1:15 PM Cloud Strife via bitcoin-dev < bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > Barrier to entry in PoW is matter for hardware and energy is > permissionless and exist all over the universe, permissionless cost which > exists for everyone no matter who because it's unforgeable. > > Barrier to entry in PoS is being given permission by the previous owner of > a token for you to have it via transfer or sale, both choices they never > have to make since there are no continuous costs with producing blocks > forcing it. A permission is an infinitely high barrier to entry if the > previous owner, like the premining party, refuses to give up the token they > control. > > You're skipping the part where you depend on a permission of a central > party in control of the authority token before you can produce blocks on > your rasberry Pi. > > Proof of stake is not in any possible way relevant to permissionless > protocols, and thus not possibly relevant to decentralized protocols where > control must be distributed to independent (i.e. permissionless) parties. > > There's nothing of relevance to discuss and this has been figured out long > long ago. > > https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Proof-of-Stake-Fallacy > > > https://medium.com/@factchecker9000/nothing-is-worse-than-proof-of-stake-e70b12b988ca > > > > > On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 7:13 AM James MacWhyte via bitcoin-dev < > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > >> >> @Lloyd wrote: >> >> Of course in reality no one wants to keep their coin holding keys online >>> so in Alogorand you can authorize a set of "participation keys"[1] that >>> will be used to create blocks on your coin holding key's behalf. >>> Hopefully you've spotted the problem. >>> You can send your participation keys to any malicious party with a nice >>> website (see random example [2]) offering you a good return. >>> Damn it's still Proof-of-SquareSpace! >>> >> >> I believe we are talking about a comparison to PoW, correct? If you want >> to mine PoW, you need to buy expensive hardware and configure it to work, >> and wait a long time to get any return by solo mining. Or you can join a >> mining pool, which might use your hashing power for nefarious purposes. Or >> you might skip the hardware all together and fall for some "cloud mining" >> scheme with a pretty website and a high rate of advertised return. So as >> you can see, Proof-of-SquareSpace exists in PoW as well! >> >> The PoS equivalent of buying mining hardware is setting up your own >> validator and not outsourcing that to anyone else. So both PoW and PoS have >> the professional/expert way of participating, and the fraud-prone, amateur >> way of participating. The only difference is, with PoS the >> professional/expert way is accessible to anyone with a raspberry Pi and a >> web connection, which is a much lower barrier to entry than PoW. >> _______________________________________________ >> bitcoin-dev mailing list >> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org >> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev >> > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > --00000000000073282e05c55e5d4a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>=C2=A0 Barrier to entry in PoS is being given permission by the previous owner of = a token

The idea that proof of stake is not permissionle= ss is completely invalid. It pains me to see such an argument here. Perhaps= we can come to an agreement by being more specific. I'd like to propos= e the following:

Premise: There is a healthy excha= nge market for PoS Coin X with tens of thousands of participants bidding to= buy and sell the coin for other currencies on the market.=C2=A0
=
If the premise above is true, then there is no significant p= ermission needed to enter the market for minting blocks for PoS Coin X. If = you make a bid on someone's coins and they don't like you and refus= e, you can move on to any one of the other tens of thousands of people in t= hat marketplace. Would you agree, Cloud Strife, that this situation couldn&= #39;t be considered "permissioned"?=C2=A0

If not, c= onsider that participation in *any* decentralized system requires the permi= ssion of at least one user in that system. If there are thousands of bitcoi= n public nodes, you require the permission of at least one of them to parti= cipate in bitcoin. No one considers bitcoin "permissioned" becaus= e of this. Do you agree?=C2=A0

On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 1:15 PM Cloud S= trife via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
Barrier to entry in PoW is matter for hardware and energy is permission= less and exist all over the universe, permissionless=C2=A0cost which exists= for everyone no matter who because it's unforgeable.

Barrier to entry in PoS is being given permission by the previous owner o= f a token for you to have it via transfer or sale, both choices they never = have to make since there are no continuous=C2=A0costs with producing blocks= forcing it. A permission is an infinitely high barrier to entry if the pre= vious owner, like the premining party, refuses to give up the token they co= ntrol.

You're skipping the part where you depe= nd on a permission of a central party in control of the authority token bef= ore you can produce blocks on your rasberry=C2=A0Pi.

Proof of stake is not in any possible way relevant to permissionless pro= tocols, and thus not possibly relevant to decentralized protocols where con= trol must be distributed to independent (i.e. permissionless) parties.

There's nothing=C2=A0of relevance to discuss and t= his has been figured out long long ago.




=


On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 7:13 AM James MacWhyte via bitcoin-= dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

@Lloyd wr= ote:

Of cour= se in reality no one wants to keep their coin holding keys online so in Alo= gorand you can authorize a set of "participation keys"[1] that wi= ll be used to create blocks on your coin holding key's behalf.
Hopef= ully you've spotted the problem.
You can send your participation key= s to any malicious party with a nice website (see random example [2]) offer= ing you a good return.
Damn it's still Proof-of-SquareSpace!

I believe we are talking about a compari= son to PoW, correct? If you want to mine PoW, you need to buy expensive har= dware and configure it to work, and wait a long time to get any return by s= olo mining. Or you can join a mining pool, which might use your hashing pow= er for nefarious purposes. Or you might skip the hardware all together and = fall for some "cloud mining" scheme with a pretty website and a h= igh rate of advertised return. So as you can see, Proof-of-SquareSpace exis= ts in PoW as well!

The PoS equivalent of buying mi= ning hardware is setting up your own validator and not outsourcing that to = anyone else. So both PoW and PoS have the professional/expert way of partic= ipating, and the fraud-prone, amateur way of participating. The only differ= ence is, with PoS the professional/expert way is accessible to anyone with = a raspberry Pi and a web connection, which is a much lower barrier to entry= than PoW.
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
= bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail= man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
= bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail= man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
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