Received: from sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.194] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-2.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1WOTn5-0000Cz-Bu for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Fri, 14 Mar 2014 15:12:55 +0000 X-ACL-Warn: Received: from wp059.webpack.hosteurope.de ([80.237.132.66]) by sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.76) id 1WOTn2-0007t3-8S for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Fri, 14 Mar 2014 15:12:55 +0000 Received: from [37.143.74.116] (helo=[192.168.2.2]); authenticated by wp059.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) id 1WOTmv-0006WJ-W3; Fri, 14 Mar 2014 16:12:46 +0100 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_949F0710-95DE-403E-8D03-D8FAE4AB9EE3"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.6 \(1510\)) From: Tamas Blummer In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 16:12:45 +0100 Message-Id: References: <52852C2D.9020103@gmail.com> <52853D8A.6010501@monetize.io> <362072F0-1EA8-4474-AE26-4691C852A22C@bitsofproof.com> To: Andreas Schildbach X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1510) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de; tamas@bitsofproof.com; 1394809972; a4905972; X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. 1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message X-Headers-End: 1WOTn2-0007t3-8S Cc: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 15:12:55 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_949F0710-95DE-403E-8D03-D8FAE4AB9EE3 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_E80EC39F-E0C5-4221-B9A7-F4C605887AC5" --Apple-Mail=_E80EC39F-E0C5-4221-B9A7-F4C605887AC5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I think you want to misunderstand me Andreas. It is astonishing arrogance to define the units because we in Bitcoin = are used to some wierd notation and ignore that the vast majority of population and=20= financial software in existence does not have a notion of prices with more than two decimals. With 1 bit =3D 100 satoshi, we would solve this problem for good.=20 Instead mBTC is a confusing step in-between. Tamas Blummer http://bitsofproof.com On 14.03.2014, at 16:02, Andreas Schildbach = wrote: > By that definition 3.56 is a price. Maybe I misunderstood you and = you're > lobbying for mBTC? >=20 >=20 > On 03/14/2014 03:57 PM, Tamas Blummer wrote: >> you miss the point Andreas. It is not about the magnitude but about >> the form of a price. >>=20 >> A number with no decimals or with two decimals is percieved as a >> price in some currency.=20 >>=20 >> A number with more than two decimals is just not percieved as a price >> but as a geeky something that you rather convert to local currency. >>=20 >> Tamas Blummer >> Bits of Proof >>=20 >> On 14.03.2014, at 15:49, Andreas Schildbach > > wrote: >>=20 >>> How much do you pay for an Espresso in your local currency? >>>=20 >>> At least for the Euro and the Dollar, mBTC 3.56 is very close to = what >>> people would expect. Certainly more familiar than =C2=B5BTC 3558 or = BTC >>> 0.003578. >>>=20 >>> Anyway, I was just sharing real-world experience: nobody is = confused. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> On 03/14/2014 03:14 PM, Tamas Blummer wrote: >>>> You give them a hard to interpret thing like mBTC and then wonder >>>> why they rather look at local currency. Because the choices you >>>> gave them are bad. >>>>=20 >>>> I think Bitcoin would have a better chance to be percieved as a >>>> currency of its own if it had prices and fractions like currencies >>>> do. >>>>=20 >>>> 3.558 mBTC or 0.003578 BTC will never be as accepted as 3558 bits >>>> would be. >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Tamas Blummer Bits of Proof >>>>=20 >>>> On 14.03.2014, at 15:05, Andreas Schildbach >>> > >>>> wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>> btw. None of Bitcoin Wallet's users complained about confusion >>>>> because of the mBTC switch. In contrast, I get many mails and >>>>> questions if exchange rates happen to differ by >10%. >>>>>=20 >>>>> I suspect nobody looks at the Bitcoin price. It's the amount in >>>>> local currency that matters to the users. >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> On 03/13/2014 02:40 PM, Andreas Schildbach wrote: >>>>>> Indeed. And users were crying for mBTC. Nobody was asking for >>>>>> =C2=B5BTC. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> I must admit I was not aware if this thread. I just watched >>>>>> other wallets and at some point decided its time to switch to >>>>>> mBTC. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> On 03/13/2014 02:31 PM, Mike Hearn wrote: >>>>>>> The standard has become mBTC and that's what was adopted. >>>>>>> It's too late to try and sway this on a mailing list thread >>>>>>> now. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 2:29 PM, Gary Rowe >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> The MultiBit HD view is that this is a locale-sensitive >>>>>>> presentation issue. As a result we offer a simple >>>>>>> configuration panel giving pretty much every possible >>>>>>> combination: icon, m+icon, =CE=BC+icon, BTC, mBTC, =CE=BCBTC, = XBT, >>>>>>> mXBT, =CE=BCXBT, sat along with settings for leading/trailing >>>>>>> symbol, commas, spaces and points. This allows anyone to >>>>>>> customise to meet their own needs beyond the offered default. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> We apply the NIST guidelines for representation of SI unit >>>>>>> symbols (i.e no conversion to native language, no RTL giving >>>>>>> icon+m etc). >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Right now MultiBit HD is configured to use m+icon taken from >>>>>>> the Font Awesome icon set. However reading earlier posts it >>>>>>> seems that =CE=BC+icon is more sensible. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Let us know what you'd like. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Links: m+icon screenshot: http://imgur.com/a/WCDoG Font >>>>>>> Awesome icon: >>>>>>> http://fortawesome.github.io/Font-Awesome/icon/btc/ NIST SI >>>>>>> guidelines: http://physics.nist.gov/Pubs/SP811/sec07.html >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> On 13 March 2014 12:56, Jeff Garzik >>>>>> >>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Resurrecting this topic. Bitcoin Wallet moved to mBTC >>>>>>> several weeks ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded like >>>>>>> the consensus was uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which will >>>>>>> happen-- may result in additional user confusion, thanks to >>>>>>> yet another decimal place transition. >=20 >=20 >=20 > = --------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- > Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book > "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and = their > applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, > this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! > http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech > _______________________________________________ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development --Apple-Mail=_E80EC39F-E0C5-4221-B9A7-F4C605887AC5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
I think you want to misunderstand me = Andreas.

It is astonishing arrogance to define the = units because we in Bitcoin are used to
some wierd notation and ignore that the = vast majority of population and 
 financial software in = existence does not have a notion of prices
with more than two = decimals.

With 1 bit =3D 100 satoshi, we would solve = this problem for good. 
Instead mBTC is a confusing step = in-between.

On 14.03.2014, at 16:02, Andreas Schildbach <andreas@schildbach.de> = wrote:

By that definition 3.56 is a price. Maybe I misunderstood = you and you're
lobbying for mBTC?


On 03/14/2014 03:57 PM, = Tamas Blummer wrote:
you miss the point = Andreas. It is not about the magnitude but about
the form of a = price.

A number with no decimals or with two decimals is = percieved as a
price in some currency.

A number with more = than two decimals is just not percieved as a price
but as a geeky = something that you rather convert to local currency.

Tamas = Blummer
Bits of Proof

On 14.03.2014, at 15:49, Andreas = Schildbach <andreas@schildbach.de
<mailto:andreas@schildbach.de>= > wrote:

How much do you pay for an = Espresso in your local currency?

At least for the Euro and the = Dollar, mBTC 3.56 is very close to what
people would expect. = Certainly more familiar than =C2=B5BTC 3558 or = BTC
0.003578.

Anyway, I was just sharing real-world = experience: nobody is confused.


On 03/14/2014 03:14 PM, Tamas = Blummer wrote:
You give them a hard to = interpret thing like mBTC and then wonder
why they rather look at = local currency. Because the choices you
gave them are bad.

I = think Bitcoin would have a better chance to be percieved as = a
currency of its own if it had prices and fractions like = currencies
do.

3.558 mBTC or 0.003578 BTC will never be as = accepted as 3558 bits
would be.


Tamas Blummer Bits of = Proof

On 14.03.2014, at 15:05, Andreas Schildbach <andreas@schildbach.de
<mailto:andreas@schildbach.de>= >
wrote:

btw. None of Bitcoin = Wallet's users complained about confusion
because of the mBTC switch. = In contrast, I get many mails and
questions if exchange rates happen = to differ by >10%.

I suspect nobody looks at the Bitcoin = price. It's the amount in
local currency that matters to the = users.


On 03/13/2014 02:40 PM, Andreas Schildbach = wrote:
Indeed. And users were crying for = mBTC. Nobody was asking for
=C2=B5BTC.

I must admit I was not = aware if this thread. I just watched
other wallets and at some point = decided its time to switch to
mBTC.


On 03/13/2014 02:31 = PM, Mike Hearn wrote:
The standard has = become mBTC and that's what was adopted.
It's too late to try and = sway this on a mailing list thread
now.


On Thu, Mar 13, = 2014 at 2:29 PM, Gary Rowe
<g.rowe@froot.co.uk <mailto:g.rowe@froot.co.uk>
&l= t;mailto:g.rowe@froot.co.uk>> = wrote:

The MultiBit HD view is that this is a = locale-sensitive
presentation issue. As a result we offer a = simple
configuration panel giving pretty much every = possible
combination: icon, m+icon,  =CE=BC+icon, BTC, mBTC, =  =CE=BCBTC, XBT,
mXBT,  =CE=BCXBT, sat along with settings = for leading/trailing
symbol, commas, spaces and points. This allows = anyone to
customise to meet their own needs beyond the offered = default.


We apply the NIST guidelines for representation of = SI unit
symbols (i.e no conversion to native language, no RTL = giving
icon+m etc).

Right now MultiBit HD is configured to use = m+icon taken from
the Font Awesome icon set. However reading earlier = posts it
seems that =CE=BC+icon is more sensible.

Let us know = what you'd like.

Links: m+icon screenshot: http://imgur.com/a/WCDoG = Font
Awesome icon:
http://fortaw= esome.github.io/Font-Awesome/icon/btc/ NIST SI
guidelines: http://physics.nist= .gov/Pubs/SP811/sec07.html


On 13 March 2014 12:56, Jeff = Garzik <jgarzik@bitpay.com
<mailto:jgarzik@bitpay.com>
&l= t;mailto:jgarzik@bitpay.com>> = wrote:

Resurrecting this topic.  Bitcoin Wallet moved to = mBTC
several weeks ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded = like
the consensus was uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which = will
happen-- may result in additional user confusion, thanks = to
yet another decimal place = transition.



-------------------------------------------= -----------------------------------
Learn Graph Databases - Download = FREE O'Reilly Book
"Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to = graph databases and their
applications. Written by three acclaimed = leaders in the field,
this first edition is now available. Download = your free book today!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTe= ch
_______________________________________________
Bitcoin-devel= opment mailing = list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourcef= orge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development

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