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Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2012 12:23:37 +0100
Message-ID: <CAKaEYhLbeBfJeLtBJTkX6S-MbqdWuQrcpNKpY2Czhhk3T6frmA@mail.gmail.com>
From: Melvin Carvalho <melvincarvalho@gmail.com>
To: Mike Hearn <mike@plan99.net>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=14dae9340347cd60fa04d10a9ca3
Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Payment Protocol Proposal:
	Invoices/Payments/Receipts
Precedence: list

--14dae9340347cd60fa04d10a9ca3
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On 17 December 2012 10:19, Mike Hearn <mike@plan99.net> wrote:

> Can we please drop the binary vs text issue? We have been around it
> millions of times already. There are no compelling arguments to use
> text here and several obvious problems with it. If you think you've
> found a good argument to use JSON, please research protocol buffers
> more thoroughly and see if it changes your mind.
>

Hi Mike, thanks you for the pointer.  I have read up on Protocol Buffers.

If the decision has already been made, then let's go with that, but if not
perhaps I can offer some comments.

Looking at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_data_serialization_formats

And -- "Canonically, Protocol Buffers are serialized into a binary wire
format which is compact, forwards-compatible, backwards-compatible, but not
self-describing"

I can see there are advantages in this approach in that you can send
messages quickly and with low bandwidth.  However the non self describing
data means that it's significantly harder to convert from one format to
another.  Also references are important, and can be achieved in JSON.

Yet in my opinion there is great advantage to growing the bitcoin ecosystem
to interoperate with the whole net, kind of creating a complete web
economy.  The way to do this is to foster interoperability.  Having looked
at and worked with standards for the past 5-10 years that is the great
challenge.  Every system works in an island, and few talk to any others.
However, a market based economy grows exponentially more valuable with
extra liquidity.

Inventing yet another format may lead to balkanization.  If history is a
judge, the chances are high.  A self describing JSON format, however is
much more likely to interop.

I can understand the hesitation with JOSE.  However, if you get a moment,
please look at :

http://payswarm.com/specs/source/web-keys/

This should provide some of the tools that you need.

As I said above, if the matter is closed, that's fine and thanks for taking
the time to read.

Can I at least propose to make it mandatory for the binary format to have a
translation script to a self describing JSON format and back again.  I
would love to see the bitcoin ecosystem become a major part of the
infrastructure of the web itself (leading to even nice things like a proper
web of trust), as well as an awesome P2P system in its own right.

--14dae9340347cd60fa04d10a9ca3
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 17 December 2012 10:19, Mike Hearn <s=
pan dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mike@plan99.net" target=3D"_blank">mi=
ke@plan99.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
yle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Can we please drop the binary vs text issue? We have been around it<br>
millions of times already. There are no compelling arguments to use<br>
text here and several obvious problems with it. If you think you&#39;ve<br>
found a good argument to use JSON, please research protocol buffers<br>
more thoroughly and see if it changes your mind. <br></blockquote><div><br>=
Hi Mike, thanks you for the pointer.=A0 I have read up on Protocol Buffers.=
<br><br>If the decision has already been made, then let&#39;s go with that,=
 but if not perhaps I can offer some comments.<br>
<br>Looking at:<br><br><a href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_o=
f_data_serialization_formats">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_da=
ta_serialization_formats</a><br><br>And -- &quot;Canonically, Protocol Buff=
ers are serialized into a binary wire format=20
which is compact, forwards-compatible, backwards-compatible, but not=20
self-describing&quot;<br><br>I can see there are advantages in this approac=
h in that you can send messages quickly and with low bandwidth.=A0 However =
the non self describing data means that it&#39;s significantly harder to co=
nvert from one format to another.=A0 Also references are important, and can=
 be achieved in JSON.<br>
<br>Yet in my opinion there is great advantage to growing the bitcoin ecosy=
stem to interoperate with the whole net, kind of creating a complete web ec=
onomy.=A0 The way to do this is to foster interoperability.=A0 Having looke=
d at and worked with standards for the past 5-10 years that is the great ch=
allenge.=A0 Every system works in an island, and few talk to any others.=A0=
 However, a market based economy grows exponentially more valuable with ext=
ra liquidity.<br>
=A0<br></div></div>Inventing yet another format may lead to balkanization.=
=A0 If history is a judge, the chances are high.=A0 A self describing JSON =
format, however is much more likely to interop.=A0 <br><br>I can understand=
 the hesitation with JOSE.=A0 However, if you get a moment, please look at =
:<br>
<br><a href=3D"http://payswarm.com/specs/source/web-keys/">http://payswarm.=
com/specs/source/web-keys/</a><br><br>This should provide some of the tools=
 that you need.<br><br>As I said above, if the matter is closed, that&#39;s=
 fine and thanks for taking the time to read.=A0 <br>
<br>Can I at least propose to make it mandatory for the binary format to ha=
ve a translation script to a self describing JSON format and back again.=A0=
 I would love to see the bitcoin ecosystem become a major part of the infra=
structure of the web itself (leading to even nice things like a proper web =
of trust), as well as an awesome P2P system in its own right.<br>

--14dae9340347cd60fa04d10a9ca3--