MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <SL2P216MB0089B70AEDD58F2EBC46B4309D9A9@SL2P216MB0089.KORP216.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <A326C6D2-7C6E-42A2-93C9-DC7647BB09B6@voskuil.org>
 <fbc4ce6c-111d-4dcc-8fc7-03ea91855bc4@www.fastmail.com>
 <SL2P216MB00899B7B3C67C0DD9E9376B09D989@SL2P216MB0089.KORP216.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
In-Reply-To: <SL2P216MB00899B7B3C67C0DD9E9376B09D989@SL2P216MB0089.KORP216.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
From: Erik Aronesty <erik@q32.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 09:49:08 -0500
Message-ID: <CAJowKg+UY4AN_9otk+6doNsP6NVeHZti_89rCAOTfVaQahre+A@mail.gmail.com>
To: LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH <willtech@live.com.au>, 
 Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Taproot NACK
Precedence: list

taproot does not enable anything that cannot already be done today.

it only enables larger and more complex scripts to be done more
efficiently - using less ledger space.

so any objections you can have should be leveled at bitcoin, not at taproot=
.

On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 6:39 AM LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH via
bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
> "Today I spent approximately $5 at a chip shop in North London in cash. B=
esides the fact that I have voluntarily chosen to share this information, i=
t is absolutely no concern of yourself or any other party that this transac=
tion has occured."
>
> Good Afternoon,
>
> Requiring little argument I concur, privacy allows that you do not have s=
noops and researchers following you around looking in your purse as you tra=
nsact. For the general public, how much you carry in your purse and where y=
ou get it from is none of their business. However, your employer is require=
d to report to the government a record of pay, or at least maintain that re=
cord, and the store where you made a purchase similarly to keep records so =
that taxes can be paid. From their perspective, you do not need to know how=
 much they keep in their drawer. Bitcoin directly allows your purse to be p=
rivate and for the transaction ledger to take the scrutiny anyone should be=
 able to apply to prove the ledger is honest. Maintaining an argument that =
consensus requires the ledger to be honest does not prove that it is honest=
.
>
> KING JAMES HRMH
> Great British Empire
>
> Regards,
> The Australian
> LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH (& HMRH)
> of Hougun Manor & Glencoe & British Empire
> MR. Damian A. James Williamson
> Wills
>
> et al.
>
>
> Willtech
> www.willtech.com.au
> www.go-overt.com
> and other projects
>
> earn.com/willtech
> linkedin.com/in/damianwilliamson
>
>
> m. 0487135719
> f. +61261470192
>
>
> This email does not constitute a general advice. Please disregard this em=
ail if misdelivered.
> ________________________________
> From: bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev-bounces@lists.linuxfoundation.org> on beha=
lf of Daniel Edgecumbe via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.o=
rg>
> Sent: Tuesday, 2 March 2021 12:16 PM
> To: M.K. Safi via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
> Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Taproot NACK
>
> Any "transparency" in the blockchain, beyond that required for a particip=
ant to determine valid ownership, can only reasonably be thought of as a bu=
g.
>
> Today I spent approximately $5 at a chip shop in North London in cash. Be=
sides the fact that I have voluntarily chosen to share this information, it=
 is absolutely no concern of yourself or any other party that this transact=
ion has occured.
>
> Bitcoin is digital cash.
>
> Daniel Edgecumbe | esotericnonsense
> email@esotericnonsense.com | https://esotericnonsense.com
>
> On Mon, Mar 1, 2021, at 22:37, Eric Voskuil via bitcoin-dev wrote:
> > To be clear, is this a NACK because Taproot reduces =E2=80=9Ctransparen=
cy=E2=80=9D
> > (increases privacy) on the chain (=E2=80=9Cmaintaining consensus=E2=80=
=9D is obviously
> > an argument against any protocol change, so that=E2=80=99s a red herrin=
g)?
> >
> > And is it your theory that only an =E2=80=9Chonest=E2=80=9D (statute ab=
iding) person
> > should have privacy, and not against the state, and/or that mixers are
> > sufficient privacy?
> >
> > Personally, I=E2=80=99m not moved by such an argument. What do you thin=
k is the
> > value proposition of Bitcoin?
> >
> > e
> >
> > > On Mar 1, 2021, at 14:21, LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH via bitcoin-=
dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > =EF=BB=BF
> > > Good Afternoon,
> > >
> > > I am going to take tough terms with much of your reply and do appreci=
ate a courteous practice. Having previously made public disclosure of my af=
filiation with Jambler.io it seems sufficient to disclose my affiliation th=
rough the link in my email signature block.
> > >
> > > My concern is not increased privacy it is maintaining consensus value=
s and the transparency of the blockchain wherein all transactions are publi=
shed in an immutable record and that forbids the redaction of information b=
y any obfuscation. A separate concern is the availability of a privacy suit=
able for cash should a Bitcoin user desire and especially without disturbin=
g the existing consensus.
> > >
> > > The use of a Bitcoin Mixer is to enable standard equivalent privacy. =
As you may experience yourself, you do not allow people to follow you aroun=
d looking in your purse, suppose you are dealing entirely with cash, and to=
 see where and how much you fill it up, and where you spend. Nonetheless, f=
or an honest person, their wallet is available for government audit as are =
their financial affairs. This is consistent with the existing operation of =
consensus.
> > >
> > > My full email signature block is a disclosure where I have some affil=
iation with the referenced website being that it carries at least some info=
rmation that I have provided or that in some way I am associated perhaps on=
ly making use of their services. For example, I hardly make a profit from L=
inkedIn just my information is there. Also, I have made previous public dis=
closure of the affiliation. Bitcoin Mixer 2.0 is a partner mixer run by Jam=
bler.io wherein I receive a service referral fee and am not in receipt of a=
ny part of the process transaction. The operation block diagram provided by=
 Jambler.io is provided here and attached.
> > > <ip.bitcointalk.org.png>
> > >
> > > [ip.bitcointalk.org.png]-Operation of Jambler.io partner mixer
> > > https://ip.bitcointalk.org/?u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fjambler.io%2Fimages%2Fs=
cheme-1.png&t=3D622&c=3DgTi7r1cfh-yynw
> > > from this thread  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3D5267588
> > >
> > >
> > > The installation script provided by Jambler.io that is the basis of m=
y referral website is also publicly published,
> > > https://github.com/jambler-io/bitcoin-mixer
> > >
> > > The disclosure for the partner program is available from Jambler.io h=
owever and is made prominently on my referral website. While it may seem lu=
crative at first I insist all partner profits are reportable on your person=
al income.
> > > https://jambler.io/become-partner.php
> > >
> > > I am certainly better than confident that you appreciate the differen=
ce between an open and transparent blockchain and the ability of the user t=
o not reveal details of the content of their wallet publicly.
> > >
> > > If further clarification is required may I suggest you pay a token an=
d mix some Bitcoin wherein our discussion may then have some point of refer=
ence.
> > >
> > > KING JAMES HRMH
> > > Great British Empire
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > The Australian
> > > LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH (& HMRH)
> > > of Hougun Manor & Glencoe & British Empire
> > > MR. Damian A. James Williamson
> > > Wills
> > >
> > > et al.
> > >
> > >
> > > Willtech
> > > www.willtech.com.au
> > > www.go-overt.com
> > > and other projects
> > >
> > > earn.com/willtech
> > > linkedin.com/in/damianwilliamson
> > >
> > >
> > > m. 0487135719
> > > f. +61261470192
> > >
> > >
> > > This email does not constitute a general advice. Please disregard thi=
s email if misdelivered.
> > > *From:* Ariel Lorenzo-Luaces <arielluaces@gmail.com>
> > > *Sent:* Monday, 1 March 2021 12:07 AM
> > > *To:* LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH <willtech@live.com.au>; Bitcoin =
Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
> > > *Subject:* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Taproot NACK
> > >
> > > Hello LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH
> > >
> > > I find a striking dichotomy between your concern of increased privacy=
 in bitcoin and your link to a bitcoin mixer in your signature www.go-overt=
.com
> > >
> > > At first your concerns seemed genuine but after seeing your promotion=
 of a bitcoin mixer I'm thinking your concerns may be more profit motivated=
? I can't tell since you failed to disclose your relationship with the mixe=
r.
> > >
> > > Could you please clarify your association with the bitcoin mixer and =
moving forward could you please always do proper disclosure any time you're=
 publically talking about bitcoin transaction privacy. It's only fair to do=
 so as to not mislead people in an attempt to manipulate at worst and just =
a courteous practice at best.
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > > Ariel Lorenzo-Luaces
> > > On Feb 28, 2021, at 4:36 AM, LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH via bitco=
in-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> > >> Good Evening,
> > >>
> > >> Thank-you for your advice   @JeremyRubin <https://twitter.com/Jeremy=
Rubin>  on the basis you advise, "Taproot does not enable monero-like priva=
cy features", I am prepred to withdraw my NACK notably that the existing fe=
eatures of Bitcoin MUST be maintained, and whereby the UTXO of a transactio=
n is identifiable, the PayTo Address, and the amount all without any obfusc=
ation.
> > >>
> > >> Lightning does not really provide obfuscation, it provides a result =
of a subset of transactions although the operation of the channel is observ=
able to the parties.
> > >>
> > >> The reports I were reading concerning the supposed operation of Tapr=
oot published in a public media channel may have been speculation or misinf=
ormation nonetheless it is prudent to conditionally reply as you see that I=
 have. It is important not to allow things to slip through the cracks. As y=
ou may believe may astute reviewers could make a full disclosure to this li=
st it is not to be expected.
> > >>
> > >> KING JAMES HRMH
> > >> Great British Empire
> > >>
> > >> Regards,
> > >> The Australian
> > >> LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH (& HMRH)
> > >> of Hougun Manor & Glencoe & British Empire
> > >> MR. Damian A. James Williamson
> > >> Wills
> > >>
> > >> et al.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Willtech
> > >> www.willtech.com.au
> > >> www.go-overt.com
> > >> and other projects
> > >>
> > >> earn.com/willtech
> > >> linkedin.com/in/damianwilliamson
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> m. 0487135719
> > >> f. +61261470192
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> This email does not constitute a general advice. Please disregard th=
is email if misdelivered.
> > >> *From:* Jeremy <jlrubin@mit.edu>
> > >> *Sent:* Sunday, 28 February 2021 3:14 AM
> > >> *To:* LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH <willtech@live.com.au>; Bitcoin=
 Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
> > >> *Subject:* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Taproot NACK
> > >>
> > >> I have good news for you: Taproot does not enable monero-like privac=
y features any moreso than already exist in Bitcoin today. At its core, tap=
root is a way to make transactions with embedded smart contracts less expen=
sive, done so in a manner that may marginally improve privacy dependent on =
user behavior (but not in the monero-like way you mention). For example, it=
 makes it possible for lightning channels to look structurally similar to s=
ingle key wallets, but it does nothing inherently to obfuscate the transact=
ion graph as in monero.
> > >>
> > >> Such "monero-like" transaction graph obfuscation may already exist i=
n Bitcoin via other techniques (coinjoin, payjoin, coinswap, lightning, etc=
) with or without Taproot, so the point is further moot.
> > >>
> > >> Do you have a source on your reporting?
> > >>
> > >> You may wish to rescind your nack.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> @JeremyRubin <https://twitter.com/JeremyRubin>  <https://twitter.com=
/JeremyRubin>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Sat, Feb 27, 2021 at 5:46 AM LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH via b=
itcoin-dev < bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> > >>> Good Afternoon,
> > >>>
> > >>> It has been reported that Taproot will enable some Monero like feat=
ures including the ability to hide transactions.
> > >>>
> > >>> If that is the case I offer a full NACK and let me explain.
> > >>>
> > >>> A part of the benefit of using Bitcoin is its honesty. The full tra=
nsaction is published on the blockchain. If that were to change so that tra=
nsactions may be obfuscated from scrutiny then any government would have un=
limited impetus to ban Bitcoin, and speculation has that is the reason Indi=
a has been reported to have banned cryptocurrencies already.
> > >>>
> > >>> I am in support of the expanded use case of Bitcoin without harming=
 the established robust fairness and equal equity offered. The core functio=
nality of Bitcoin, its values, must remain unaltered.
> > >>>
> > >>> KING JAMES HRMH
> > >>> Great British Empire
> > >>>
> > >>> Regards,
> > >>> The Australian
> > >>> LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH (& HMRH)
> > >>> of Hougun Manor & Glencoe & British Empire
> > >>> MR. Damian A. James Williamson
> > >>> Wills
> > >>>
> > >>> et al.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Willtech
> > >>> www.willtech.com.au
> > >>> www.go-overt.com
> > >>> and other projects
> > >>>
> > >>> earn.com/willtech
> > >>> linkedin.com/in/damianwilliamson
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> m. 0487135719
> > >>> f. +61261470192
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> This email does not constitute a general advice. Please disregard t=
his email if misdelivered.
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> > >>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> > >>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
> > >>
> > >> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> > >> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> > >> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
> > > <ip.bitcointalk.org.png>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > bitcoin-dev mailing list
> > > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> > > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
> > _______________________________________________
> > bitcoin-dev mailing list
> > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
> >
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev