Return-Path: Received: from smtp3.osuosl.org (smtp3.osuosl.org [140.211.166.136]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 071CDC0001 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 2021 03:26:36 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp3.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA0046E8F5 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 2021 03:26:35 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.352 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.352 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DATE_IN_PAST_12_24=1.049, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: smtp3.osuosl.org (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=q32-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from smtp3.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp3.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f8OSEYOMlOh9 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 2021 03:26:34 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: delayed 07:57:40 by SQLgrey-1.8.0 Received: from mail-pg1-x52e.google.com (mail-pg1-x52e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::52e]) by smtp3.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 719EE606CB for ; Thu, 4 Mar 2021 03:26:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pg1-x52e.google.com with SMTP id e6so17960873pgk.5 for ; Wed, 03 Mar 2021 19:26:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=q32-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=jqzIcTjN8d0aU7U3H9J8e9zK0rGZnDzr77thB5l1zcE=; b=q34ho65zlbL+Cu1LiZfjzhwvDeVYrhUhEs8zLr2vXEpDUQmL1PPrd9zkkfannymCVN UVjTlUISnHN1GGOCbofsLbpfAocB5Nd2ThQd3aHxUmcW96a3myMtyka4AiswEpoNuXVn r+rsRpFqypWf77jQkOXUiRBDpKRL9nB0/jdKx0VS0Sj3336vHLZVcR+OXOZY1PU6vH1E SSA+zSYsZFySNYTpRZ9nqXPYUdL6XPrdmjN/MdCRiWU0IL7htiCR+y6WQpCQNxXaI6ms fbFMHZQW748/He1z5VgWu9WvVmXMXwHpvEbw51QG6pLNK9/6IzlHrEfCx3dPiGCzJq2E HNgg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=jqzIcTjN8d0aU7U3H9J8e9zK0rGZnDzr77thB5l1zcE=; b=AmErQ6pxjEIrmugiJgqYc1OWwFVar1B3eg9XIQRvpoPIwZ6SH59vmrHjGcWtFjrLw5 RVOPlf74+Q59evG8r/J4ahGhwpYcwokkwWmmX6HTaQDlHN95Jya8lLGmkOB4Sk6V7p19 t3jivPUkY2fP61B/ZpEItFVdfC+ml7pQYyMaw6WcGbTGwAjFzQUrlxzxPv31x8Ys1e5o gEesmZ1ricZxTiDgKnfpRjfCOPD8/GfrAHmgfyNcXmwhMY4/f09rDEKMbVga8pcuKQeH pA/vAyKDiHFS59tkgOn4Q13rJkj9yRym8DqUdnI4RqNJR38T7XbTUwfiGy/nvcH5y8Lm 1eKw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531FLC6JDsXsjMsekbhZDZ7XK2lyYYgqP5SwB4pOjuT7wbXUZ+5l ytG7DUCWY3hvau/oyRgukxb1lPk1ckza+ShbmUDY48mUBe0w X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyYO6qV+CixvSX9kJ+8UU4XDj6vZdoCl5sP/xrlA0H/5yNUnx7e6tIEdOmxqOlLjCh1SGl7j0Bv6/pv9rt+s4s= X-Received: by 2002:a63:c0a:: with SMTP id b10mr23972805pgl.251.1614782959980; Wed, 03 Mar 2021 06:49:19 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Erik Aronesty Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 09:49:08 -0500 Message-ID: To: LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH , Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 04 Mar 2021 20:48:42 +0000 Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Taproot NACK X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2021 03:26:36 -0000 taproot does not enable anything that cannot already be done today. it only enables larger and more complex scripts to be done more efficiently - using less ledger space. so any objections you can have should be leveled at bitcoin, not at taproot= . On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 6:39 AM LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH via bitcoin-dev wrote: > > "Today I spent approximately $5 at a chip shop in North London in cash. B= esides the fact that I have voluntarily chosen to share this information, i= t is absolutely no concern of yourself or any other party that this transac= tion has occured." > > Good Afternoon, > > Requiring little argument I concur, privacy allows that you do not have s= noops and researchers following you around looking in your purse as you tra= nsact. For the general public, how much you carry in your purse and where y= ou get it from is none of their business. However, your employer is require= d to report to the government a record of pay, or at least maintain that re= cord, and the store where you made a purchase similarly to keep records so = that taxes can be paid. From their perspective, you do not need to know how= much they keep in their drawer. Bitcoin directly allows your purse to be p= rivate and for the transaction ledger to take the scrutiny anyone should be= able to apply to prove the ledger is honest. Maintaining an argument that = consensus requires the ledger to be honest does not prove that it is honest= . > > KING JAMES HRMH > Great British Empire > > Regards, > The Australian > LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH (& HMRH) > of Hougun Manor & Glencoe & British Empire > MR. Damian A. James Williamson > Wills > > et al. > > > Willtech > www.willtech.com.au > www.go-overt.com > and other projects > > earn.com/willtech > linkedin.com/in/damianwilliamson > > > m. 0487135719 > f. +61261470192 > > > This email does not constitute a general advice. Please disregard this em= ail if misdelivered. > ________________________________ > From: bitcoin-dev on beha= lf of Daniel Edgecumbe via bitcoin-dev > Sent: Tuesday, 2 March 2021 12:16 PM > To: M.K. Safi via bitcoin-dev > Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Taproot NACK > > Any "transparency" in the blockchain, beyond that required for a particip= ant to determine valid ownership, can only reasonably be thought of as a bu= g. > > Today I spent approximately $5 at a chip shop in North London in cash. Be= sides the fact that I have voluntarily chosen to share this information, it= is absolutely no concern of yourself or any other party that this transact= ion has occured. > > Bitcoin is digital cash. > > Daniel Edgecumbe | esotericnonsense > email@esotericnonsense.com | https://esotericnonsense.com > > On Mon, Mar 1, 2021, at 22:37, Eric Voskuil via bitcoin-dev wrote: > > To be clear, is this a NACK because Taproot reduces =E2=80=9Ctransparen= cy=E2=80=9D > > (increases privacy) on the chain (=E2=80=9Cmaintaining consensus=E2=80= =9D is obviously > > an argument against any protocol change, so that=E2=80=99s a red herrin= g)? > > > > And is it your theory that only an =E2=80=9Chonest=E2=80=9D (statute ab= iding) person > > should have privacy, and not against the state, and/or that mixers are > > sufficient privacy? > > > > Personally, I=E2=80=99m not moved by such an argument. What do you thin= k is the > > value proposition of Bitcoin? > > > > e > > > > > On Mar 1, 2021, at 14:21, LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH via bitcoin-= dev wrote: > > > > > > =EF=BB=BF > > > Good Afternoon, > > > > > > I am going to take tough terms with much of your reply and do appreci= ate a courteous practice. Having previously made public disclosure of my af= filiation with Jambler.io it seems sufficient to disclose my affiliation th= rough the link in my email signature block. > > > > > > My concern is not increased privacy it is maintaining consensus value= s and the transparency of the blockchain wherein all transactions are publi= shed in an immutable record and that forbids the redaction of information b= y any obfuscation. A separate concern is the availability of a privacy suit= able for cash should a Bitcoin user desire and especially without disturbin= g the existing consensus. > > > > > > The use of a Bitcoin Mixer is to enable standard equivalent privacy. = As you may experience yourself, you do not allow people to follow you aroun= d looking in your purse, suppose you are dealing entirely with cash, and to= see where and how much you fill it up, and where you spend. Nonetheless, f= or an honest person, their wallet is available for government audit as are = their financial affairs. This is consistent with the existing operation of = consensus. > > > > > > My full email signature block is a disclosure where I have some affil= iation with the referenced website being that it carries at least some info= rmation that I have provided or that in some way I am associated perhaps on= ly making use of their services. For example, I hardly make a profit from L= inkedIn just my information is there. Also, I have made previous public dis= closure of the affiliation. Bitcoin Mixer 2.0 is a partner mixer run by Jam= bler.io wherein I receive a service referral fee and am not in receipt of a= ny part of the process transaction. The operation block diagram provided by= Jambler.io is provided here and attached. > > > > > > > > > [ip.bitcointalk.org.png]-Operation of Jambler.io partner mixer > > > https://ip.bitcointalk.org/?u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fjambler.io%2Fimages%2Fs= cheme-1.png&t=3D622&c=3DgTi7r1cfh-yynw > > > from this thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3D5267588 > > > > > > > > > The installation script provided by Jambler.io that is the basis of m= y referral website is also publicly published, > > > https://github.com/jambler-io/bitcoin-mixer > > > > > > The disclosure for the partner program is available from Jambler.io h= owever and is made prominently on my referral website. While it may seem lu= crative at first I insist all partner profits are reportable on your person= al income. > > > https://jambler.io/become-partner.php > > > > > > I am certainly better than confident that you appreciate the differen= ce between an open and transparent blockchain and the ability of the user t= o not reveal details of the content of their wallet publicly. > > > > > > If further clarification is required may I suggest you pay a token an= d mix some Bitcoin wherein our discussion may then have some point of refer= ence. > > > > > > KING JAMES HRMH > > > Great British Empire > > > > > > Regards, > > > The Australian > > > LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH (& HMRH) > > > of Hougun Manor & Glencoe & British Empire > > > MR. Damian A. James Williamson > > > Wills > > > > > > et al. > > > > > > > > > Willtech > > > www.willtech.com.au > > > www.go-overt.com > > > and other projects > > > > > > earn.com/willtech > > > linkedin.com/in/damianwilliamson > > > > > > > > > m. 0487135719 > > > f. +61261470192 > > > > > > > > > This email does not constitute a general advice. Please disregard thi= s email if misdelivered. > > > *From:* Ariel Lorenzo-Luaces > > > *Sent:* Monday, 1 March 2021 12:07 AM > > > *To:* LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH ; Bitcoin = Protocol Discussion > > > *Subject:* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Taproot NACK > > > > > > Hello LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH > > > > > > I find a striking dichotomy between your concern of increased privacy= in bitcoin and your link to a bitcoin mixer in your signature www.go-overt= .com > > > > > > At first your concerns seemed genuine but after seeing your promotion= of a bitcoin mixer I'm thinking your concerns may be more profit motivated= ? I can't tell since you failed to disclose your relationship with the mixe= r. > > > > > > Could you please clarify your association with the bitcoin mixer and = moving forward could you please always do proper disclosure any time you're= publically talking about bitcoin transaction privacy. It's only fair to do= so as to not mislead people in an attempt to manipulate at worst and just = a courteous practice at best. > > > > > > Cheers > > > Ariel Lorenzo-Luaces > > > On Feb 28, 2021, at 4:36 AM, LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH via bitco= in-dev wrote: > > >> Good Evening, > > >> > > >> Thank-you for your advice @JeremyRubin on the basis you advise, "Taproot does not enable monero-like priva= cy features", I am prepred to withdraw my NACK notably that the existing fe= eatures of Bitcoin MUST be maintained, and whereby the UTXO of a transactio= n is identifiable, the PayTo Address, and the amount all without any obfusc= ation. > > >> > > >> Lightning does not really provide obfuscation, it provides a result = of a subset of transactions although the operation of the channel is observ= able to the parties. > > >> > > >> The reports I were reading concerning the supposed operation of Tapr= oot published in a public media channel may have been speculation or misinf= ormation nonetheless it is prudent to conditionally reply as you see that I= have. It is important not to allow things to slip through the cracks. As y= ou may believe may astute reviewers could make a full disclosure to this li= st it is not to be expected. > > >> > > >> KING JAMES HRMH > > >> Great British Empire > > >> > > >> Regards, > > >> The Australian > > >> LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH (& HMRH) > > >> of Hougun Manor & Glencoe & British Empire > > >> MR. Damian A. James Williamson > > >> Wills > > >> > > >> et al. > > >> > > >> > > >> Willtech > > >> www.willtech.com.au > > >> www.go-overt.com > > >> and other projects > > >> > > >> earn.com/willtech > > >> linkedin.com/in/damianwilliamson > > >> > > >> > > >> m. 0487135719 > > >> f. +61261470192 > > >> > > >> > > >> This email does not constitute a general advice. Please disregard th= is email if misdelivered. > > >> *From:* Jeremy > > >> *Sent:* Sunday, 28 February 2021 3:14 AM > > >> *To:* LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH ; Bitcoin= Protocol Discussion > > >> *Subject:* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Taproot NACK > > >> > > >> I have good news for you: Taproot does not enable monero-like privac= y features any moreso than already exist in Bitcoin today. At its core, tap= root is a way to make transactions with embedded smart contracts less expen= sive, done so in a manner that may marginally improve privacy dependent on = user behavior (but not in the monero-like way you mention). For example, it= makes it possible for lightning channels to look structurally similar to s= ingle key wallets, but it does nothing inherently to obfuscate the transact= ion graph as in monero. > > >> > > >> Such "monero-like" transaction graph obfuscation may already exist i= n Bitcoin via other techniques (coinjoin, payjoin, coinswap, lightning, etc= ) with or without Taproot, so the point is further moot. > > >> > > >> Do you have a source on your reporting? > > >> > > >> You may wish to rescind your nack. > > >> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> @JeremyRubin > > >> > > >> > > >> On Sat, Feb 27, 2021 at 5:46 AM LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH via b= itcoin-dev < bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > > >>> Good Afternoon, > > >>> > > >>> It has been reported that Taproot will enable some Monero like feat= ures including the ability to hide transactions. > > >>> > > >>> If that is the case I offer a full NACK and let me explain. > > >>> > > >>> A part of the benefit of using Bitcoin is its honesty. The full tra= nsaction is published on the blockchain. If that were to change so that tra= nsactions may be obfuscated from scrutiny then any government would have un= limited impetus to ban Bitcoin, and speculation has that is the reason Indi= a has been reported to have banned cryptocurrencies already. > > >>> > > >>> I am in support of the expanded use case of Bitcoin without harming= the established robust fairness and equal equity offered. The core functio= nality of Bitcoin, its values, must remain unaltered. > > >>> > > >>> KING JAMES HRMH > > >>> Great British Empire > > >>> > > >>> Regards, > > >>> The Australian > > >>> LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH (& HMRH) > > >>> of Hougun Manor & Glencoe & British Empire > > >>> MR. Damian A. James Williamson > > >>> Wills > > >>> > > >>> et al. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Willtech > > >>> www.willtech.com.au > > >>> www.go-overt.com > > >>> and other projects > > >>> > > >>> earn.com/willtech > > >>> linkedin.com/in/damianwilliamson > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> m. 0487135719 > > >>> f. +61261470192 > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> This email does not constitute a general advice. Please disregard t= his email if misdelivered. > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> bitcoin-dev mailing list > > >>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > > >>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > > >> > > >> bitcoin-dev mailing list > > >> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > > >> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > bitcoin-dev mailing list > > > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > > > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > > _______________________________________________ > > bitcoin-dev mailing list > > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > > > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev