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HTTP; Wed, 14 Jun 2017 11:55:04 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <31040BE1-64ED-4D05-BCBE-E80BC7B9A182@gmail.com> References: <31040BE1-64ED-4D05-BCBE-E80BC7B9A182@gmail.com> From: Jameson Lopp Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2017 11:55:04 -0700 Message-ID: To: Zheming Lin Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a113de1de220acb0551f017ff" X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU, FREEMAIL_FROM, HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org Cc: Bitcoin Dev Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Proposal: Demonstration of Phase in Full Network Upgrade Activated by Miners X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2017 18:55:10 -0000 --001a113de1de220acb0551f017ff 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On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 11:29 AM, Zheming Lin <heater@gmail.com>= wrote:
Hi Jameson:

=E5=9C=A8 2017=E5=B9=B46=E6=9C=8815=E6=97=A5=EF= =BC=8C01:20=EF=BC=8CJameson Lopp <jameson.lopp@gmail.com> =E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF= =BC=9A



On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 9:39 AM, Zheming = Lin via bitcoin-dev=C2=A0<bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundatio= n.org>=C2=A0wrote:


> =E5=9C=A8 2017=E5=B9=B46=E6=9C=8814=E6=97=A5=EF=BC=8C02:11= =EF=BC=8CGregory Maxwell <greg@xiph.org> =E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A
>
> On T= ue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:23 AM, Zheming Lin via bitcoin-dev
> <bitcoi= n-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

> The enforcement of the system's rules by user= s broadly, and not just
> miners, is specifically described in the wh= ite paper (section 8,
> paragraph 2, it especially clear in the last = sentence).=C2=A0 This is
> critical for the security of Bitcoin espec= ially with the current
> degree of centralization in pools.=C2=A0 Wit= hout it, Bitcoin's security
> would look a lot more like the Ripp= le system.
>

=E6=98=AF=E7=9A=84=EF=BC=8C=E7=94=A8=E6=88= =B7=E6=B0=B8=E8=BF=9C=E9=83=BD=E6=9C=89=E9=80=89=E6=8B=A9=EF=BC=8C=E5=B9=B6= =E5=8F=AF=E4=BB=A5=E6=8A=9B=E5=BC=83=E9=82=A3=E4=BA=9B=E8=8A=82=E7=82=B9=E3= =80=82=E8=BF=99=E4=B8=AA BIP =E5=B9=B6=E6=B2=A1=E6=9C=89=E5=8F=8D=E5=AF=B9= =E8=BF=99=E4=BA=9B=E7=94=A8=E6=88=B7=E8=BF=99=E4=B9=88=E5=81=9A=E3=80=82=E5= =8F=AA=E6=9C=89=E9=82=A3=E4=BA=9B=E8=A2=AB=E5=8A=A8=E7=9A=84=E9=92=B1=E5=8C= =85=E7=94=A8=E6=88=B7=EF=BC=8C=E4=BB=96=E4=BB=AC=E9=9C=80=E8=A6=81=E7=9F=A5= =E9=81=93=E5=BF=85=E9=A1=BB=E5=81=9A=E5=87=BA=E4=B8=80=E4=B8=AA=E9=80= =89=E6=8B=A9=E3=80=82=EF=BC=88=E8=80=8C=E4=B8=8D=E6=98=AF=E8=A2=AB=E5=8A=A8= =E7=9A=84=E8=B7=9F=E9=9A=8F=E9=BB=98=E8=AE=A4=E7=9A=84=E7=AD=96=E7=95=A5=EF= =BC=89
Yes, users always have choice that they can abandon the nodes. Th= is BIP does=E2=80=99t go against them. I mean only the one(especially walle= ts) that=E2=80=99s passive, they need to know there=E2=80=99s a choice and = pick one.

=E8=BF=99=E4=B8=AA BIP =E5=8F=AF=E4=BB=A5=E8=A2=AB=E5=BA= =94=E7=94=A8=E4=BA=8E=E5=87=A0=E4=B9=8E=E4=BB=BB=E4=BD=95=E7=9A=84=E5=8D=87= =E7=BA=A7=E4=B8=8A=EF=BC=8C=E5=8C=85=E6=8B=AC=E9=9A=94=E7=A6=BB=E8=A7=81=E8= =AF=81=EF=BC=8C=E4=B8=A4=E5=85=86=E7=9A=84=E9=9A=94=E7=A6=BB=E8=A7=81=E8=AF= =81=EF=BC=8C=E4=B8=A4=E5=85=86=E6=89=A9=E5=AE=B9=EF=BC=8C=E6=B6=8C=E7= =8E=B0=E5=85=B1=E8=AF=86=EF=BC=8C=E5=85=AB=E5=85=86=E6=89=A9=E5=AE=B9=E7=AD= =89=E3=80=82=E4=BD=86=E8=BF=99=E4=BA=9B=E5=8D=87=E7=BA=A7=E5=B9=B6=E4=B8=8D= =E6=98=AF=E9=87=8D=E7=82=B9=E3=80=82
This BIP can be applied to almost a= ny upgrade, including Segwit, Segwit2x, 2m, ec, 8m=E2=80=A6 but the upgrade= is not the key point.

=E5=88=B0=E5=BA=95=E6=88=91=E4=BB=AC=E7=9A=84= =E7=94=A8=E6=88=B7=E6=98=AF=E5=90=A6=E7=9C=9F=E7=9A=84=E6=8B=A5=E6=9C=89=E9= =80=89=E6=8B=A9=EF=BC=9F
Did the users have any real choice?

=E6= =88=91=E5=B9=B6=E4=B8=8D=E8=83=BD=E7=90=86=E8=A7=A3=E4=BB=96=E4=BB=AC=E7=9B= =B8=E4=BF=A1=E5=A4=A7=E9=83=A8=E5=88=86=E7=9F=BF=E5=B7=A5=EF=BC=88=E5=B0=B1= =E5=83=8F=E5=BD=93=E5=89=8D=E4=B8=80=E6=A0=B7=EF=BC=89=EF=BC=8C=E4=BD=86=E6= =8B=92=E7=BB=9D=E8=BF=99=E4=BA=9B=E5=A4=9A=E6=95=B0=E7=9F=BF=E5=B7=A5= =E5=AF=B9=E5=8D=8F=E8=AE=AE=E6=94=B9=E5=8F=98=E7=9A=84=E6=8A=95=E7=A5=A8=E7= =BB=93=E6=9E=9C=E3=80=82
I don=E2=80=99t see the reason they trust the m= ajority miners(as they do today) but refuse the vote for upcoming protocol = upgrade.

To be = clear, Bitcoin is not a democracy - if you find yourself using the term &qu= ot;voting" then you may be misunderstanding how consensus forms. Once = a feature has been vetted and the code is deployed, miners may signal that = they are ready to enforce new rules. If for some reason miners are too &quo= t;passive or lazy" or wish to "veto" the activation of the n= ew rules, users may choose to circumvent said veto by refusing to accept bl= ocks that do not show readiness for enforcing the new rules.

How does the users show their op= inion? They can fork away and leave. But what remains will be united. Are y= ou afraid of the united users or the fork?

I agree= with you that the =E2=80=9Cvote=E2=80=9D is not accurate. Could you kindly= suggest an other word for that?

I think users sho= uld have choice to follow the miners or not. Do you agree with this or not?=

Regar= ding consensus changes, users can voice their opinion on any number of comm= unication platforms. Though if you're looking for a way for users to si= gnal their intentions at the protocol level, every proposal for doing that = to date has been arguably flawed. Measuring meatspace consensus is pretty t= ricky if not completely impossible, especially given the fact that the vast= majority of Bitcoin users do not voice any opinions on the matter of conse= nsus rules.

Most attempts at measuring user consen= sus would probably be best described as signaling rather than voting given = that the act of doing so has no actual power to affect consensus. Every use= r who runs a fully validating node is free to enforce the rules with which = the agree regardless of what rules other entities are enforcing.=C2=A0
=C2=A0

=E5=AF=B9=E9=92=B1=E5=8C= =85=E7=94=A8=E6=88=B7=E7=9A=84=E9=80=89=E6=8B=A9=EF=BC=8C=E6=98=AF=E4=BB=96= =E4=BB=AC=E6=98=AF=E5=90=A6=E7=9B=B8=E4=BF=A1=E5=A4=9A=E6=95=B0=E7=9F=BF=E5= =B7=A5=E3=80=82=E5=A6=82=E6=9E=9C=E4=BB=96=E4=BB=AC=E4=B8=8D=E7=9B=B8=E4=BF= =A1=EF=BC=8C=E5=8F=AF=E4=BB=A5=E9=80=9A=E8=BF=87=E5=88=86=E5=8F=89=E6= =9D=A5=E6=B6=88=E9=99=A4=E6=8E=89=E7=9F=BF=E5=B7=A5=E3=80=82
This choice= for wallet users right now, is wether to follow the 51% majority miners. I= f they don=E2=80=99t, they can have their fork that get rid of miners.
<= br>=E5=A6=82=E6=9E=9C=E4=BB=96=E4=BB=AC=E4=BB=8D=E6=97=A7=E7=9B=B8=E4=BF=A1= =E7=9F=BF=E5=B7=A5=EF=BC=8C=E9=82=A3=E4=B9=88=E5=8F=AF=E4=BB=A5=E7=95=99=E4= =B8=8B=E6=9D=A5=E5=B9=B6=E8=B7=9F=E9=9A=8F=E7=9F=BF=E5=B7=A5=E5=B0=86=E6=9D= =A5=E7=9A=84=E5=8D=8F=E8=AE=AE=E6=94=B9=E5=8F=98=E3=80=82
If they d= o trust the majority miners, they stay and follow the vote for upcoming pro= tocol upgrade.

=E6=89=80=E4=BB=A5=E9=97=AE=E9=A2=98=E5=9C=A8=E4=BA= =8E=EF=BC=9A=E6=AF=94=E7=89=B9=E5=B8=81=E7=9A=84=E5=BC=80=E5=8F=91=E8=80=85= =E3=80=81=E7=94=A8=E6=88=B7=E3=80=81=E6=8B=A5=E6=9C=89=E8=80=85=E3=80=81=E6= =9C=8D=E5=8A=A1=E6=8F=90=E4=BE=9B=E8=80=85=E3=80=81=E7=94=9A=E8=87=B3= =E7=9F=BF=E5=B7=A5=EF=BC=8C=E6=98=AF=E5=90=A6=EF=BC=88=E4=BB=8D=E7=84=B6=EF= =BC=89=E5=A6=82=E7=99=BD=E7=9A=AE=E4=B9=A6=E4=B8=AD=E6=8F=8F=E8=BF=B0=E7=9A= =84=E5=AF=B9=E5=A4=A7=E5=A4=9A=E6=95=B0=E7=9F=BF=E5=B7=A5=E6=8B=A5=E6=9C=89= =E4=BF=A1=E4=BB=BB=E3=80=82
So the questions is: Do the bitcoin develope= rs, users, holders, service provides, even miners, (still) have faith in th= e majority of miners as designed in the white paper?

=C2=A0
There is a fundamental misconception regar= ding this point - the white paper refers to majority hashpower needing to b= e honest with regard to determining the correct chain within the context of= many possible /valid/ chain forks. It is not referring to using hashpower = to determine the correct chain amongst an infinitely variable number of cur= rently invalid chain forks. Bitcoin ecosystem participants should not have = faith in miners (or any other entity) when it comes to choosing the consens= us rules they wish to enforce.


Arrrgh. I think in the BIP, the miners just inv= alids tx version 1 temporarily. That=E2=80=99s a =E2=80=9Csoft fork=E2=80= =9D right? If they dislike the idea, they can leave as always.
From my understanding, if the o= nly change miners make is to stop confirming transactions that have a versi= on less than X then it should be a soft fork, yes.=C2=A0

Regards

LIN Zheming


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