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From: Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@bitpay.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2015 01:36:45 -0400
Message-ID: <CAJHLa0NrNqECvqhJWNX=rt3-h4U3jwFWoMCrcbyC6hUT5EqWbw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Eric Lombrozo <elombrozo@gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e013d0ddc559949051873bb07
Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] User vote in blocksize through fees
Precedence: list

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The choice is very real and on-point.  What should the block size limit
be?  Why?

There is a large consensus that it needs increasing.  To what?  By what
factor?

The size limit literally defines the fee market, the whole damn thing.  If
software high priests choose a size limit of 300k, space is scarce, fees
are bid high.  If software high priests choose a size limit of 32mb, space
is plentiful, fees are near zero.  Market actors take their signals
accordingly.  Some business models boom, some business models fail, as a
direct result of changing this unintentionally-added speedbump.  Different
users value adoption, decentralization etc. differently.

The size limit is an economic policy lever that needs to be transitioned
-away- from software and software developers, to the free market.

A simple, e.g. hard fork to 2MB or 4MB does not fix higher level governance
problems associated with actors lobbying developers, even if a cloistered
and vetted Technical Advisory Board as has been proposed.







On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 1:20 AM, Eric Lombrozo <elombrozo@gmail.com> wrote:

> I definitely think we need some voting system for metaconsensus=E2=80=A6b=
ut if
> we=E2=80=99re going to seriously consider this we should look at the prob=
lem much
> more generally. Using false choices doesn=E2=80=99t really help, though ;=
)
>
> - Eric Lombrozo
>
>
> On Jun 13, 2015, at 10:13 PM, Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@bitpay.com> wrote:
>
> On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 1:08 AM, Eric Lombrozo <elombrozo@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> 2) BIP100 has direct economic consequences=E2=80=A6and particularly for =
miners.
>> It lends itself to much greater corruptibility.
>>
>>
> What is the alternative?  Have a Chief Scientist or Technical Advisory
> Board choose what is a proper fee, what is a proper level of
> decentralization, a proper growth factor?
>
>
>


--=20
Jeff Garzik
Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
BitPay, Inc.      https://bitpay.com/

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<div dir=3D"ltr">The choice is very real and on-point.=C2=A0 What should th=
e block size limit be?=C2=A0 Why?<div><br></div><div>There is a large conse=
nsus that it needs increasing.=C2=A0 To what?=C2=A0 By what factor?</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>The size limit literally defines the fee market, the whol=
e damn thing.=C2=A0 If software high priests choose a size limit of 300k, s=
pace is scarce, fees are bid high.=C2=A0 If software high priests choose a =
size limit of 32mb, space is plentiful, fees are near zero.=C2=A0 Market ac=
tors take their signals accordingly.=C2=A0 Some business models boom, some =
business models fail, as a direct result of changing this unintentionally-a=
dded speedbump.=C2=A0 Different users value adoption, decentralization etc.=
 differently.</div><div><br></div><div>The size limit is an economic policy=
 lever that needs to be transitioned -away- from software and software deve=
lopers, to the free market.</div><div><br></div><div>A simple, e.g. hard fo=
rk to 2MB or 4MB does not fix higher level governance problems associated w=
ith actors lobbying developers, even if a cloistered and vetted Technical A=
dvisory Board as has been proposed.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div=
><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D=
"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 1:20 A=
M, Eric Lombrozo <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:elombrozo@gmail.co=
m" target=3D"_blank">elombrozo@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc so=
lid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">I definitely thin=
k we need some voting system for metaconsensus=E2=80=A6but if we=E2=80=99re=
 going to seriously consider this we should look at the problem much more g=
enerally. Using false choices doesn=E2=80=99t really help, though ;)<span c=
lass=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><div><br></div></font></span><div><=
span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">- Eric Lombrozo</font></span>=
<span class=3D""><br><div><br><div><br><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>=
On Jun 13, 2015, at 10:13 PM, Jeff Garzik &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jgarzik@bit=
pay.com" target=3D"_blank">jgarzik@bitpay.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br><div>=
<span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-=
variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;=
text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;wor=
d-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at =
1:08 AM, Eric Lombrozo<span>=C2=A0</span></span><span dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"=
font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;=
font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:star=
t;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">=
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:elombrozo@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">elombrozo@gmai=
l.com</a>&gt;</span><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;fon=
t-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal=
;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;wh=
ite-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important"><spa=
n>=C2=A0</span>wrote:</span><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12=
px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:=
normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:n=
one;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div class=3D"gmail_extra" style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:nor=
mal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:=
start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0=
px"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204=
,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">2) BIP100 has direct econom=
ic consequences=E2=80=A6and particularly for miners. It lends itself to muc=
h greater corruptibility.<br><br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>What is t=
he alternative?=C2=A0 Have a Chief Scientist or Technical Advisory Board ch=
oose what is a proper fee, what is a proper level of decentralization, a pr=
oper growth factor?</div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></d=
iv></span></div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></d=
iv>-- <br><div class=3D"gmail_signature">Jeff Garzik<br>Bitcoin core develo=
per and open source evangelist<br>BitPay, Inc. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=
=3D"https://bitpay.com/" target=3D"_blank">https://bitpay.com/</a></div>
</div>

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