Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8E6BF106E for ; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 03:33:13 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: from auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail.bluematt.me (mail.bluematt.me [192.241.179.72]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4297718C for ; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 03:33:12 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [IPv6:2607:fb90:2138:b2e:93ce:7a7b:486c:3982] (unknown [172.56.30.206]) by mail.bluematt.me (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3852958D97; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 03:33:10 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: References: <55D77A7F.40402@mattcorallo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----OR16NUU0Q7BWPHPHC763EWT6Y4OU3X" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Matt Corallo Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2015 03:33:07 +0000 To: Alex Morcos , Alex Morcos via bitcoin-dev , Danny Thorpe Message-ID: <272A5405-676C-4CC9-8E17-F3149DDB18AA@mattcorallo.com> X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org Cc: Bitcoin Dev Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Proposed new policy for transactions that depend on other unconfirmed transactions X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Development Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2015 03:33:13 -0000 ------OR16NUU0Q7BWPHPHC763EWT6Y4OU3X Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 There is a PR up for this change at https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6771, which is getting some discussion for those following along. On October 5, 2015 1:02:40 PM PDT, Alex Morcos via bitcoin-dev wrote: >Yes, total number of dependent transactions regardless of chain depth. > >A descendant package means all the transactions that can not be >included in >a block before the transaction in question. > >An ancestor package means all the transactions that are required to be >included in a block before the transaction in question can be. > > > > >On Mon, Oct 5, 2015 at 2:51 PM, Danny Thorpe >wrote: > >> What does "package" mean here? >> >> When you say 25 txs, does that mean maximum linked chain depth, or >total >> number of dependent transactions regardless of chain depth? >> >> Thanks, >> -Danny >> >> >> >> On Mon, Oct 5, 2015 at 11:45 AM, Alex Morcos via bitcoin-dev < >> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: >> >>> I'd like to propose updates to the new policy limits on unconfirmed >>> transaction chains. >>> >>> The existing limits in master and scheduled for release in 0.12 are: >>> Ancestor packages = 100 txs and 900kb total size >>> Descendant packages = 1000 txs and 2500kb total size >>> >>> Before 0.12 is released I would like to propose a significant >reduction >>> in these limits. In the course of analyzing algorithms for mempool >>> limiting, it became clear that large packages of unconfirmed >transactions >>> were the primary vector for mempool clogging or relay fee boosting >attacks. >>> Feedback from the initial proposed limits was that they were too >generous >>> anyway. >>> >>> The proposed new limits are: >>> Ancestor packages = 25 txs and 100kb total size >>> Descendant packages = 25 txs and 100kb total size >>> >>> Based on historical transaction data, the most restrictive of these >>> limits is the 25 transaction count on descendant packages. Over the >period >>> of April and May of this year (before stress tests), 5.8% of >transactions >>> would have violated this limit alone. Applying all the limits >together >>> would have affected 6.1% of transactions. >>> >>> Please keep in mind these are policy limits that affect transactions >>> which depend on other unconfirmed transactions only. They are not a >change >>> to consensus rules and do not affect how many chained txs a valid >block may >>> contain. Furthermore, any transaction that was unable to be relayed >due to >>> these limits need only wait for some of its unconfirmed ancestors to >be >>> included in a block and then it could be successfully broadcast. >This is >>> unlikely to affect the total time from creation to inclusion in a >block. >>> Finally, these limits are command line arguments that can easily be >changed >>> on an individual node basis in Bitcoin Core. >>> >>> Please give your feedback if you know of legitimate use cases that >would >>> be hindered by these limits. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Alex >>> >>> On Mon, Sep 21, 2015 at 11:02 AM, Alex Morcos >wrote: >>> >>>> Thanks for everyone's review. These policy changes have been >merged in >>>> to master in 6654 , >which >>>> just implements these limits and no mempool limiting yet. The >default >>>> ancestor package size limit is 900kb not 1MB. >>>> >>>> Yes I think these limits are generous, but they were designed to be >as >>>> generous as was computationally feasible so they were >unobjectionable >>>> (since the existing policy was no limits). This does not preclude >future >>>> changes to policy that would reduce these limits. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Aug 21, 2015 at 3:52 PM, Danny Thorpe > >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> The limits Alex proposed are generous (bordering on obscene!), but >>>>> dropping that down to allowing only two levels of chained >unconfirmed >>>>> transactions is too tight. >>>>> >>>>> Use case: Brokered asset transfers may require sets of >transactions >>>>> with a dependency tree depth of 3 to be published together. ( N >seller txs, >>>>> 1 broker bridge tx, M buyer txs ) >>>>> >>>>> If the originally proposed depth limit of 100 does not provide a >>>>> sufficient cap on memory consumption or loop/recursion depth, a >depth limit >>>>> of 10 would provide plenty of headroom for this 3 level use case >and >>>>> similar patterns. >>>>> >>>>> -Danny >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Aug 21, 2015 at 12:22 PM, Matt Corallo via bitcoin-dev < >>>>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I dont see any problem with such limits. Though, hell, if you >limited >>>>>> entire tx dependency trees (ie transactions and all required >>>>>> unconfirmed >>>>>> transactions for them) to something like 10 txn, maximum two >levels >>>>>> deep, I also wouldnt have a problem. >>>>>> >>>>>> Matt >>>>>> >>>>>> On 08/14/15 19:33, Alex Morcos via bitcoin-dev wrote: >>>>>> > Hi everyone, >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > I'd like to propose a new set of requirements as a policy on >when to >>>>>> > accept new transactions into the mempool and relay them. This >policy >>>>>> > would affect transactions which have as inputs other >transactions >>>>>> which >>>>>> > are not yet confirmed in the blockchain. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > The motivation for this policy is 6470 >>>>>> > which aims to >limit >>>>>> the >>>>>> > size of a mempool. As discussed in that pull >>>>>> > >>>>>> >, >>>>>> > once the mempool is full a new transaction must be able to pay >not >>>>>> only >>>>>> > for the transaction it would evict, but any dependent >transactions >>>>>> that >>>>>> > would be removed from the mempool as well. In order to make >sure >>>>>> this >>>>>> > is always feasible, I'm proposing 4 new policy limits. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > All limits are command line configurable. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > The first two limits are required to make sure no chain of >>>>>> transactions >>>>>> > will be too large for the eviction code to handle: >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Max number of descendant txs : No transaction shall be accepted >if it >>>>>> > would cause another transaction in the mempool to have too many >>>>>> > descendant transactions (all of which would have to be evicted >if the >>>>>> > ancestor transaction was evicted). Default: 1000 >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Max descendant size : No transaction shall be accepted if it >would >>>>>> cause >>>>>> > another transaction in the mempool to have the total size of >all its >>>>>> > descendant transactions be too great. Default : maxmempool / >200 >>>>>> = 2.5MB >>>>>> > >>>>>> > The third limit is required to make sure calculating the state >>>>>> required >>>>>> > for sorting and limiting the mempool and enforcing the first 2 >>>>>> limits is >>>>>> > computationally feasible: >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Max number of ancestor txs: No transaction shall be accepted >if it >>>>>> has >>>>>> > too many ancestor transactions which are not yet confirmed (ie, >in >>>>>> the >>>>>> > mempool). Default: 100 >>>>>> > >>>>>> > The fourth limit is required to maintain the pre existing >policy goal >>>>>> > that all transactions in the mempool should be mineable in the >next >>>>>> block. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Max ancestor size: No transaction shall be accepted if the >total >>>>>> size of >>>>>> > all its unconfirmed ancestor transactions is too large. >Default: 1MB >>>>>> > >>>>>> > (All limits include the transaction itself.) >>>>>> > >>>>>> > For reference, these limits would have affected less than 2% of >>>>>> > transactions entering the mempool in April or May of this year. >>>>>> During >>>>>> > the period of 7/6 through 7/14, while the network was under >stress >>>>>> test, >>>>>> > as many as 25% of the transactions would have been affected. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > The code to implement the descendant package tracking and new >policy >>>>>> > limits can be found in 6557 >>>>>> > which is built >off >>>>>> of 6470. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Thanks, >>>>>> > Alex >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>>> > bitcoin-dev mailing list >>>>>> > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org >>>>>> > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> bitcoin-dev mailing list >>>>>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org >>>>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> bitcoin-dev mailing list >>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org >>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev >>> >>> >> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >bitcoin-dev mailing list >bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org >https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev ------OR16NUU0Q7BWPHPHC763EWT6Y4OU3X Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit There is a PR up for this change at https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6771, which is getting some discussion for those following along.

On October 5, 2015 1:02:40 PM PDT, Alex Morcos via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
Yes, total number of dependent transactions regardless of chain depth.  

A descendant package means all the transactions that can not be included in a block before the transaction in question.

An ancestor package means all the transactions that are required to be included in a block before the transaction in question can be.




On Mon, Oct 5, 2015 at 2:51 PM, Danny Thorpe <danny.thorpe@gmail.com> wrote:
What does "package" mean here?  

When you say 25 txs, does that mean maximum linked chain depth, or total number of dependent transactions regardless of chain depth?

Thanks,
-Danny



On Mon, Oct 5, 2015 at 11:45 AM, Alex Morcos via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
I'd like to propose updates to the new policy limits on unconfirmed transaction chains. 

The existing limits in master and scheduled for release in 0.12 are: 
Ancestor packages = 100 txs and 900kb total size
Descendant packages = 1000 txs and 2500kb total size 

Before 0.12 is released I would like to propose a significant reduction in these limits. In the course of analyzing algorithms for mempool limiting, it became clear that large packages of unconfirmed transactions were the primary vector for mempool clogging or relay fee boosting attacks. Feedback from the initial proposed limits was that they were too generous anyway. 

The proposed new limits are: 
Ancestor packages = 25 txs and 100kb total size
Descendant packages = 25 txs and 100kb total size 

Based on historical transaction data, the most restrictive of these limits is the 25 transaction count on descendant packages. Over the period of April and May of this year (before stress tests), 5.8% of transactions would have violated this limit alone. Applying all the limits together would have affected 6.1% of transactions. 

Please keep in mind these are policy limits that affect transactions which depend on other unconfirmed transactions only. They are not a change to consensus rules and do not affect how many chained txs a valid block may contain. Furthermore, any transaction that was unable to be relayed due to these limits need only wait for some of its unconfirmed ancestors to be included in a block and then it could be successfully broadcast. This is unlikely to affect the total time from creation to inclusion in a block. Finally, these limits are command line arguments that can easily be changed on an individual node basis in Bitcoin Core. 

Please give your feedback if you know of legitimate use cases that would be hindered by these limits. 

Thanks, 
Alex

On Mon, Sep 21, 2015 at 11:02 AM, Alex Morcos <morcos@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks for everyone's review.  These policy changes have been merged in to master in 6654, which just implements these limits and no mempool limiting yet.  The default ancestor package size limit is 900kb not 1MB.

Yes I think these limits are generous, but they were designed to be as generous as was computationally feasible so they were unobjectionable (since the existing policy was no limits).  This does not preclude future changes to policy that would reduce these limits.





On Fri, Aug 21, 2015 at 3:52 PM, Danny Thorpe <danny.thorpe@gmail.com> wrote:
The limits Alex proposed are generous (bordering on obscene!), but dropping that down to allowing only two levels of chained unconfirmed transactions is too tight.  

Use case: Brokered asset transfers may require sets of transactions with a dependency tree depth of 3 to be published together. ( N seller txs, 1 broker bridge tx, M buyer txs )

If the originally proposed depth limit of 100 does not provide a sufficient cap on memory consumption or loop/recursion depth, a depth limit of 10 would provide plenty of headroom for this 3 level use case and similar patterns.

-Danny

On Fri, Aug 21, 2015 at 12:22 PM, Matt Corallo via bitcoin-dev < ;bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
I dont see any problem with such limits. Though, hell, if you limited
entire tx dependency trees (ie transactions and all required unconfirmed
transactions for them) to something like 10 txn, maximum two levels
deep, I also wouldnt have a problem.

Matt

On 08/14/15 19:33, Alex Morcos via bitcoin-dev wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
>
> I'd like to propose a new set of requirements as a policy on when to
> accept new transactions into the mempool and relay them.  This policy
> would affect transactions which have as inputs other transactions which
> are not yet confirmed in the blockchain.
>
> The motivation for this policy is 6470
> <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6470> which aims to limit the
> size of a mempool.  As discussed in that pull
> <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6470#issuecomment-125324736>,
> once the mempool is full a new transaction must be able to pay not only
> for the transaction it would evict, but any dependent transactions that
> would be removed from the mempool as well.  In order to make sure this
> is always feasible, I'm proposing 4 new policy limits.
>
> All limits are command line configurable.
>
> The first two limits are required to make sure no chain of transactions
> will be too large for the eviction code to handle:
>
> Max number of descendant txs : No transaction shall be accepted if it
> would cause another transaction in the mempool to have too many
> descendant transactions (all of which would have to be evicted if the
> ancestor transaction was evicted).  Default: 1000
>
> Max descendant size : No transaction shall be accepted if it would cause
> another transaction in the mempool to have the total size of all its
> descendant transactions be too great.  Default : maxmempool / 200  =  2.5MB
>
> The third limit is required to make sure calculating the state required
> for sorting and limiting the mempool and enforcing the first 2 limits is
> computationally feasible:
>
> Max number of ancestor txs:  No transaction shall be accepted if it has
> too many ancestor transactions which are not yet confirmed (ie, in the
> mempool). Default: 100
>
> The fourth limit is required to maintain the pre existing policy goal
> that all transactions in the mempool should be mineable in the next block.
>
> Max ancestor size: No transaction shall be accepted if the total size of
> all its unconfirmed ancestor transactions is too large.  Default: 1MB
>
> (All limits include the transaction itself.)
>
> For reference, these limits would have affected less than 2% of
> transactions entering the mempool in April or May of this year.  During
> the period of 7/6 through 7/14, while the network was under stress test,
> as many as 25% of the transactions would have been affected.
>
> The code to implement the descendant package tracking and new policy
> limits can be found in 6557
> <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6557> which is built off of 6470.
>
> Thanks,
> Alex
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev




_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev




bitcoin-dev mailing list
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
------OR16NUU0Q7BWPHPHC763EWT6Y4OU3X--