Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7F69BCBC for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2017 23:00:04 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-pf0-f170.google.com (mail-pf0-f170.google.com [209.85.192.170]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EE9B8F4 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2017 23:00:03 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pf0-f170.google.com with SMTP id d23so2214766pfe.9 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2017 15:00:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=6sgXqGvLrJ9k1/4qyn+3zT8Br6Z+ih4/R5s0ZN/WF3M=; b=bn/gLzNXJ3HcAFDOwKXL85J1curBj28k00r7jcB8zAvDlyZZu/oy6VYvjcYDR4gqOR CzmdhFh7ITj8dZ1w5RBUSNyKHn9SjvHyBMyvzuL+/8pFKGZZYOKLfOshA+AHKMtVWSsp uUcPqWbl8DDrsClO83eZl6xWWR/pw+shJ8JUSGQxqrYblZiVKpYG970J1IRSebNdvl3Z Kq5AaAzVLpDeCu0JDbmQfzMvPbAIffJ3hVWf6Rp9vRuLwSVQEtZ+N+d42aWTYoqEECTv vvGax6E0UiQ2x8rLu0aANIUkU7YIVA/uOcMaEXtj5QbzCg50vUH+jpWHqQ9CGPdwva2B fx2g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=6sgXqGvLrJ9k1/4qyn+3zT8Br6Z+ih4/R5s0ZN/WF3M=; b=C8/wvrcbCJwFq2SsZvx72s6Ml8G/cVXxfkyfAALh8jWexeBzW0bl2VeL2rFgwN4rqX bHhI+j73uE0hlrHd3bPK7VZuqaC7qpOjbZbpU03GtiiBq2Kam35u1fgT0YffOOBP4Lr6 +glSIViTpUKJYjLtYnQVzQAdky5dBu2KK/4Pav1K/wNOFS6leLDsd1CnbE1cCZtM5PzX BIuPzUNaVdfikJ5tvrn07zeZbBRcaTdsGRI+4SzQzPAEyk2uQO+VHZO5IZdrc6z1f96T 5txSNDCOHYF1hJ1jqP4MYJdywHbmddkCAaZBw5JGmeYN5jwv3yGc+F0bnb2paLtwJ4ke JJHQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mJx1r6UTqZYoupsRHEfZii6pEJ09MqyCKxg8FuT+2Kb8TyliLQZ JdRz0b0tqc/7W/SoDNbxl/AujKJodPsbguBYRfr7Bg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBovuvBaSnhvk/meYaP9eD9TxpTsVuVSumL5/fsNTHS5FXcf+YL5uyOWiB86Q2aE2zK9cLWf9mAV6PMKLT2NJDz4= X-Received: by 10.159.244.142 with SMTP id y14mr7266628plr.166.1513206003266; Wed, 13 Dec 2017 15:00:03 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.164.132 with HTTP; Wed, 13 Dec 2017 15:00:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.164.132 with HTTP; Wed, 13 Dec 2017 15:00:02 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Daniel McNally Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2017 18:00:02 -0500 Message-ID: To: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="089e082321404bfce3056040ba48" X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,LOTS_OF_MONEY, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 03:26:51 +0000 Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP Proposal: Utilization of bits denomination X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2017 23:00:04 -0000 --089e082321404bfce3056040ba48 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I think standardization of this term is a great idea. I second all of Jimmy's points. I think the analogy of dollars & cents to bits and satoshis is easy to grasp, particularly given that satoshis and cents are the smallest tangible units of their respective currencies. It's a concept that's common across cultures and countries as it also applies to pounds and pence, pesos and centavos, etc... To David's points, I agree that it's not ideal that bit is a homonym for other words, but I don't think it's a terrible flaw as context will usually make the meaning clear. I'm actually not in love with the term "bit," but rather the idea of a non-SI term for a millionth of a bitcoin. But bit has already caught on to some extent and I can't think of anything better. > - Microbitcoins trains users to understand SI prefixes, allowing them to easily > migrate from one prefix to the next. This will be important when bitcoin > prices rise to $10M USD[1] and the bits denomination has the same > problems the millibitcoin denomination has now, but it's also useful in > the short term when interacting with users who make very large payments > (bitcoin-scale) or very small payments (nanobitcoin-scale).[2] I find the SI prefixes to be very user unfriendly. I have plenty of smart friends and family who constantly confuse mega, giga, micro, nano, and so on. Rather than try to train users, I think we should choose terms that will be easy for them to grasp right away. Even for people fluent in SI terms, I think some of the problems regarding unit bias still exist. 500 microbitcoins sounds diminutive and uttering it is a reminder that it's a very small fraction of a larger unit. 500 bits sounds like you have 500 of something, neat! I consider "bits" to be a term that's quite future proofed. While I won't dismiss the possibility of $10M or $100M bitcoins in the not-too-distant future, there would still be plenty of time for a bit to be a useful day-to-day unit. Even at the $10M point, small ticket items like coffee could still be priced at 0.30 bits for example, not bad I'd say. Should bitcoin ever soar past the $100M mark, it might be time for a new term akin to bits and maybe a hard fork to allow for more decimal places on chain. A nanobitcoin could not be transacted with today anyhow. These would all be good problems to have. Thanks for reading and thanks to Jimmy for taking the initiative with this BIP. Daniel --089e082321404bfce3056040ba48 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I think standardization of this term is = a great idea. I second all of Jimmy's points. I think the analogy of do= llars & cents to bits and satoshis is easy to grasp, particularly given= that satoshis and cents are the smallest tangible units of their respectiv= e currencies. It's a concept that's common across cultures and coun= tries as it also applies to pounds and pence, pesos and centavos, etc...

To David's points, I agr= ee that it's not ideal that bit is a homonym for other words, but I don= 't think it's a terrible flaw as context will usually make the mean= ing clear. I'm actually not in love with the term "bit," but = rather the idea of a non-SI term for a millionth of a bitcoin. But bit has = already caught on to some extent and I can't think of anything better.<= div dir=3D"auto">
=C2=A0
- Microbitcoins trains users to= understand SI prefixes, allowing them to=C2=A0easily migrate from one prefix to the next.=C2=A0 This will be = important=C2=A0when bitcoin prices = rise to $10M USD[1] and the bits denomination has=C2=A0the same problems the millibitcoin denomination has n= ow, but it's also=C2=A0useful i= n the short term when interacting with users who make very=C2=A0large payments (bitcoin-scale) or very small p= ayments=C2=A0(nanobitcoin-scale).[2= ]

I find the SI prefixes to be very user unfriendly. I have plenty of sma= rt friends and family who constantly confuse mega, giga, micro, nano, and s= o on. Rather than try to train users, I think we should choose terms that w= ill be easy for them to grasp right away. Even for people fluent in SI term= s, I think some of the problems regarding unit bias still exist. 500 microb= itcoins sounds diminutive and uttering it is a reminder that it's a ver= y small fraction of a larger unit. 500 bits sounds like you have 500 of som= ething, neat!=C2=A0

I co= nsider "bits" to be a term that's quite future proofed. While= I won't dismiss the possibility of $10M or $100M bitcoins in the not-t= oo-distant future, there would still be plenty of time for a bit to be a us= eful day-to-day unit. Even at the $10M point, small ticket items like coffe= e could still be priced at 0.30 bits for example, not bad I'd say.

Should bitcoin ever soar pas= t the $100M mark, it might be time for a new term akin to bits and maybe a = hard fork to allow for more decimal places on chain. A nanobitcoin could no= t be transacted with today anyhow. These would all be good problems to have= .=C2=A0

Thanks for readi= ng and thanks to Jimmy for taking the initiative with this BIP.=C2=A0
=

Daniel
=
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