Return-Path: Received: from smtp2.osuosl.org (smtp2.osuosl.org [IPv6:2605:bc80:3010::133]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A232C002A for ; Tue, 23 May 2023 04:31:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp2.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32B67402E6 for ; Tue, 23 May 2023 04:31:28 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp2.osuosl.org 32B67402E6 X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, BITCOIN_XPRIO=1.004, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from smtp2.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp2.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1p_2Kp7Wjrpj for ; Tue, 23 May 2023 04:31:27 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: from auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0 DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp2.osuosl.org 9B32E400C4 Received: from p3plwbeout16-02.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtp16-02-2.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [173.201.193.56]) by smtp2.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9B32E400C4 for ; Tue, 23 May 2023 04:31:27 +0000 (UTC) X-MW-NODE: X-CMAE-Analysis: v=2.4 cv=QaGjAuXv c=1 sm=1 tr=0 ts=646c419f a=dFffxkGDbYo3ckkjzRcKYg==:117 a=dFffxkGDbYo3ckkjzRcKYg==:17 a=Ct8w6Lk4fQYA:10 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=oOA7D3HX-xOqsNsEwh0A:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=zgiPjhLxNE0A:10 a=zZCYzV9kfG8A:10 a=bqVQx_vprwYTpb_vJV8w:22 X-SECURESERVER-ACCT: burak@buraks.blog X-SID: 1JgDqggYod1ui Date: Tue, 23 May 2023 07:31:24 +0300 (TRT) From: Burak Keceli To: ZmnSCPxj , Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Message-ID: <2021501773.1219513.1684816284977@eu1.myprofessionalmail.com> In-Reply-To: <94d_XdPjU7_erTbusSTbsSWNNL3Wgx61scF_EknkwXp_ywmCLJ5jc13RVlTF_gpdZG5scUU_4z27qPykXQjLESE1m06CEJbsCha13QdqeFY=@protonmail.com> References: <1300890009.1516890.1684742043892@eu1.myprofessionalmail.com> <94d_XdPjU7_erTbusSTbsSWNNL3Wgx61scF_EknkwXp_ywmCLJ5jc13RVlTF_gpdZG5scUU_4z27qPykXQjLESE1m06CEJbsCha13QdqeFY=@protonmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v8.12.73 X-Originating-IP: 79.173.144.194 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4xfOC430thS6OfDA+sF2nYaJMpZrKXB0e1JPcOSrn7RlGGR+oo0kiR/l9pCD0P2RzunbFduteEyM7rC9JOiykFarijLhKqb/8geZxxhbCKoiWYF/ePtDKh f3/d00MOYoOLudqxFrhxNGufA55cz3tucnz7o/6r3lNx/DaIH5nHfxujkauSVkTfM0Y/GXvV2l6aTlhu64lyVQprsexb9NNJXmISOgpQ1eZuKKNSHV5DLCoV JFkU2qI8f5Ll+lwPuYJmam2anloYlbgJdR7fxggBgEOb0SRCvitJnY4m+6VkTflO X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 23 May 2023 09:58:53 +0000 Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Ark: An Alternative Privacy-preserving Second Layer Solution X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 May 2023 04:31:28 -0000 > As the access to Lightning is also by the (same?) ASP, it seems to me that the ASP will simply fail to forward the payment on the broader Lightning network after it has replaced the in-mempool transaction, preventing recipients from actually being able to rely on any received funds existing until the next pool transaction is confirmed. Yes, that's correct. Lightning payments are routed through ASPs. ASP may not cooperate in forwarding HTLC(s) AFTER double-spending their pool transaction. However, it's a footgun if ASP forwards HTLC(s) BEFORE double-spending their pool transaction. What makes Ark magical is, in the collaborative case, users' ability to pay lightning invoices with their zero-conf vTXOs, without waiting for on-chain confirmations. This is the opposite of swap-ins, where users SHOULD wait for on-chain confirmations before revealing their preimage of the HODL invoice; otherwise, the swap service provider can steal users' sats by double-spending their zero-conf HTLC.