Received: from sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.192] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-2.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1WmNyO-0000fX-Pc for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Mon, 19 May 2014 13:51:24 +0000 Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.128.174 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.128.174; envelope-from=alexy.kot.all@gmail.com; helo=mail-ve0-f174.google.com; Received: from mail-ve0-f174.google.com ([209.85.128.174]) by sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) id 1WmNyM-0005BH-RJ for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Mon, 19 May 2014 13:51:24 +0000 Received: by mail-ve0-f174.google.com with SMTP id jw12so6363272veb.5 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 06:51:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.58.89.242 with SMTP id br18mr257150veb.66.1400507477141; Mon, 19 May 2014 06:51:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: alexy.kot.all@gmail.com Received: by 10.58.211.135 with HTTP; Mon, 19 May 2014 06:50:34 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <5377892C.8080402@gmail.com> From: Alex Kotenko Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 14:50:34 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: jIZt-8z96Bcnd9tgl7U06aQAS-o Message-ID: To: Brooks Boyd Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b471fb0ae2e5704f9c10eea X-Spam-Score: -0.3 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (alexy.kot.all[at]gmail.com) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.3 HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD BODY: HTML font face is not a word -0.1 DKIM_VALID_AU Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature X-Headers-End: 1WmNyM-0005BH-RJ Cc: Bitcoin Dev Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Paper Currency X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 13:51:25 -0000 --047d7b471fb0ae2e5704f9c10eea Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Asking random ignorant stranger to care to protect themselves never works. We need solution that requires strictly zero effort. Best regards, Alex Kotenko 2014-05-19 14:06 GMT+01:00 Brooks Boyd : > >> 2014-05-18 13:14 GMT+01:00 Andreas Schildbach : > >> One problem we couldn't figure out here though - how to protect the > >> notes from unauthorized redeem. Like if someone else tries to reach your > >> wallet with his own NFC - how can we distinguish between deliberate > >> redeem by owner and fraudulent redeem by anybody else with custom built > >> long range NFC antenna? Any ideas? > >> > >> I think you'd need multiple factors to protect against that attack. Like > >> encrypting with a key that is printed on the note as an QR code. > > > >On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 7:51 AM, Alex Kotenko wrote: > > > > Yes, but it must not sacrifice usability. It's paper money, people are > used to it and they have rather high standard of expectations in this area. > Any usbility sacrifices in this area result into failure of the whole thing. > > > > Best regards, > > Alex Kotenko > > One thought I had reading through this exchange: I think the general > public is becoming more aware of the "hacker with a long range > antenna" sort of attack, since credit cards are getting microchips > that can be scanned. There's a few videos I've seen of white hat > hackers demonstrating how a suitcase-sized apparatus carried by > someone walking down the street can scan and make charges on cards in > people's pockets as the attacker brushes past. Hence RFID-blocking > sleeves/wallets are on the market, such that your smart credit card > can't make a purchase while its in your wallet. Is a RFID-blocking > wallet also NFC-blocking? Irregardless of whatever "future cash" you > choose to carry (be it credit card or bitcoin card/coin/cash), perhaps > its the wallet/purse that needs an upgrade, to ensure your money > doesn't spend itself while its in your pocket, but you can easily > remove it and spend it conveniently? > > Brooks > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > "Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE > Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. > Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform > available > Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free." > http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs > _______________________________________________ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > --047d7b471fb0ae2e5704f9c10eea Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Asking random ignorant stranger to care to pro= tect themselves never works. We need solution that requires strictly zero e= ffort.


Best regards,=C2=A0
Alex Kotenko


2014-05-19 14:06 GMT+01:00 Brooks Boyd <= span dir=3D"ltr"><boydb@midnightdesign.ws>:
>> 2014-05-18 13:14 GMT+01:00 Andreas Schildbach <= andreas@schildbach.de>:
>> One problem we couldn't figure out here though - how to protec= t the
>> notes from unauthorized redeem. Like if someone else tries to reac= h your
>> wallet with his own NFC - how can we distinguish between deliberat= e
>> redeem by owner and fraudulent redeem by anybody else with custom = built
>> long range NFC antenna? Any ideas?
>>
>> I think you'd need multiple factors to protect against that at= tack. Like
>> encrypting with a key that is printed on the note as an QR code. >
>On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 7:51 AM, Alex Kotenko <= ;alexykot@gmail.com> wrote: >
> Yes, but it must not sacrifice usability. It's paper money, people= are used to it and they have rather high standard of expectations in this = area. Any usbility sacrifices in this area result into failure of the whole= thing.
>
> Best regards,
> Alex Kotenko

One thought I had reading through this exchange: I think the general<= br> public is becoming more aware of the "hacker with a long range
antenna" sort of attack, since credit cards are getting microchips
that can be scanned. There's a few videos I've seen of white hat hackers demonstrating how a suitcase-sized apparatus carried by
someone walking down the street can scan and make charges on cards in
people's pockets as the attacker brushes past. Hence RFID-blocking
sleeves/wallets are on the market, such that your smart credit card
can't make a purchase while its in your wallet. Is a RFID-blocking
wallet also NFC-blocking? Irregardless of whatever "future cash" = you
choose to carry (be it credit card or bitcoin card/coin/cash), perhaps
its the wallet/purse that needs an upgrade, to ensure your money
doesn't spend itself while its in your pocket, but you can easily
remove it and spend it conveniently?

Brooks

---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---
"Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE=
Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos.
Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform availa= ble
Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free."
http://p.sf.net= /sfu/SauceLabs
_______________________________________________
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-develo= pment@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de= velopment

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