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([2601:600:a080:16bb:cc2:2a58:54e6:f4ef]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h12sm10390599pje.12.2019.07.05.18.46.46 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 05 Jul 2019 18:46:46 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Eric Voskuil X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16F203) In-Reply-To: <0851B842-34A1-427F-95DC-A1D6AB416FB9@voskuil.org> Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 18:46:45 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <91607BB7-B57E-4F28-9DDF-D22B8E98739B@voskuil.org> References: <0DBC0DEA-C999-4AEE-B2E1-D5337ECD9405@gmail.com> <6B9A04E2-8EEE-40A0-8B39-64AA0F478CAB@voskuil.org> <4mT6iC4Va7Afg15a5NLbddAnF2a_vAcQSXYr_jg_5IyEK2ezblJff7EJZakoqvp4BJlLitt9Zlq1_l5JadR0nVss7VDPW-pv8jXGh7lkFC4=@protonmail.com> <0851B842-34A1-427F-95DC-A1D6AB416FB9@voskuil.org> To: ZmnSCPxj X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 06 Jul 2019 12:48:29 +0000 Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Generalized covenants with taproot enable riskless or risky lending, prevent credit inflation through fractional reserve X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2019 01:46:48 -0000 > On Jul 5, 2019, at 18:28, Eric Voskuil wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On Jul 5, 2019, at 17:17, ZmnSCPxj wrote: >>=20 >> Good morning Eric, >>=20 >>> But it=E2=80=99s worth noting that early recovery of the UTXO entirely e= liminates the value of the time lock cost to the ad market. The most obvious= example is one encumbering the coin to himself, then releasing it with his o= wn two signatures whenever he wants. In other words, there is no encumbrance= at all, just a bunch of pointless obscurantion. >>=20 >> You still do not understand. >> I strongly suggest actually reading the post instead of skimming it. >=20 > I am responding to the cryptoeconomic principles, not the implementation d= etails. Based on your comments here I am not misrepresenting those principle= s. >=20 > For example, I have shown that the multisig unlock implementation reduces t= he presumably-encumbered UTXO to simply a UTXO. You have not disputed that. I= n fact below you have accepted it (more below). >=20 >> The advertisement is broadcast to new nodes on the ad network if and only= if its backing UTXO remains unspent. >> Once the UTXO is spent, then the advertisement is considered no longer va= lid and will be outright deleted by existing nodes, and new nodes will not l= earn of them (and would consider it spam if it is forced to them when the UT= XO is already spent, possibly banning the node that pushes the advertisement= at them). >>=20 >> Thus the locked-ness of the UTXO is the lifetime of the advertisement. >=20 > The term =E2=80=9Clocked=E2=80=9D here is misused. A unspent output that c= an be spent at any time is just an unspent output. The fact that you can =E2= =80=9Cunencumber=E2=80=9D your own coins should make this exceedingly obviou= s: >=20 >> Once you disencumber the coins (whether your own, or rented) then your ad= vertisement is gone; forever. >=20 > As I have shown, there is no *actual* encumbrance. >=20 >> Your advertisement exists only as long as the UTXO is unspent. >=20 > Exactly, which implies *any* UTXO is sufficient. All that the ad network r= equires is proof of ownership of any UTXO. >=20 > Unspentness is not actually a necessary cost (expense). All coin is always= represented as UTXOs. If one has a hoard of coin there is no necessary incr= emental cost of identifying those coins to =E2=80=9Cback=E2=80=9D ads.This i= sn=E2=80=99t altered by the proposed design. >=20 > The only cost would be to have a hoard that one does not otherwise desire,= representing an opportunity cost. Yet, as I have also pointed out, the amou= nt of that opportunity cost can simply be spent (or burned) by the advertise= r, representing the same cost. So covering the case where one cannot raise t= he capital to =E2=80=9Cback=E2=80=9D one=E2=80=99s ad does not require renta= l, as the cost of the otherwise rental can just be spent outright. >=20 > Presumably it would be ideal to transfer the value of those spends to peop= le who provably present the ads for effective viewing (i.e., the AdWords bus= iness model). It is of course this market-driven cost of presenting an ad th= at provides the spam protection/definition for AdWords. It=E2=80=99s worth pointing out at this point that this implies Google, etc.= would achieve the same result by simply accepting Bitcoin for ad placement.= In your model the advertiser is paying only for access to people who wish t= o avoid spam, not for targeted and actual placement. In other words your ad s= ystem would be directly competing with others that provide material addition= al value for the advertiser beyond anti-spam. If nothing else this implies t= he return on coin =E2=80=9Clock-up=E2=80=9D would be exceeded by its opportu= nity cost. > Best, > Eric >=20 >> Regards. >> ZmnSCPxj