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From: Christian Moss <chrismoss411@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2021 16:35:19 +0000
Message-ID: <CANQKmgLyaYAjL_=LziTCFT=Ahc2SXjJrWc+RO59pxd3mnJApfQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_Habov=C5=A1tiak?= <martin.habovstiak@gmail.com>, 
 Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
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Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?H=C3=A9ctor_Jos=C3=A9_C=C3=A1rdenas_Pacheco?=
 <hcarpach@gmail.com>, lightning-dev <lightning-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] [Lightning-dev] Sending OP_RETURN via Bitcoin
	Lightning
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As far as I understand it, RGB doesn't scale NFTs as each
transaction to transfer ownership of an NFT would require an onchain
transaction

On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 3:44 PM Martin Habov=C5=A1tiak via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

> I recommend you researching RGB: https://rgb-org.github.io/
>
> On Mon, Dec 6, 2021, 11:21 Karl <gmkarl@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'm not a bitcoin developer.
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 6, 2021, 5:05 AM H=C3=A9ctor Jos=C3=A9 C=C3=A1rdenas Pacheco=
 via bitcoin-dev
>> <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello all,
>>>
>>> I=E2=80=99ve been thinking about how OP_RETURN is being used to create =
and trade
>>> NFTs on Bitcoin (think RarePepes, SoG and other new ones) and was wonde=
ring
>>> if it=E2=80=99s possible to
>>>
>>
>> Do you have a link to any of these protocols?
>>
>> make transactions with this opcode via Lightning.
>>>
>>> More specific questions could be:
>>>
>>>    1. Can opcodes like OP_RETURN be inside a channel=E2=80=99s opening =
or
>>>    closing transaction?
>>>    2. If so, could that OP_RETURN change hands within that channel or
>>>    network of channels?
>>>
>>> OP_RETURNs do not have ownership according to the bitcoin network.  It
>> is not hard to define a protocol that associates an OP_RETURN with
>> ownership, and ownership could then be transferred via lightning by send=
ing
>> associated currency via lightning.  Robustness improvements seem possibl=
e.
>>
>>
>>>    1. If possible, could the OP_RETURN be divisible? Could one person
>>>    send a piece of a OP_RETURN just like one can do right now on the pr=
imary
>>>    ledger or would it need to maintain the OP_RETURN code intact?
>>>
>>> OP_RETURNs themselves do not have ownership, but you can define a
>> protocol that gives them divisible ownership, including via lightning.
>>
>> I=E2=80=99m assuming that, if possible, this would need a protocol layer=
 parallel
>>> to Bitcoin/Lightning that stores and reads all Bitcoin transactions and=
 the
>>> ones which involve the node's channels as well as the ones with the
>>> OP_RETURN, just like CounterParty does right now with the primary ledge=
r.
>>>
>>> Thank in advance.
>>> =E2=80=94=E2=80=94
>>>
>>> *H=C3=A9ctor C=C3=A1rdenas*@hcarpach
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Lightning-dev mailing list
>> Lightning-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/lightning-dev
>>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">As far as I understand it, RGB doesn&#39;t scale NFTs as e=
ach transaction=C2=A0to=C2=A0transfer=C2=A0ownership of an NFT would requir=
e an onchain transaction</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"lt=
r" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 3:44 PM Martin Habov=C5=A1ti=
ak via bitcoin-dev &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.=
org">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockqu=
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px=
 solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto">I recommend you=
 researching RGB:=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://rgb-org.github.io/" target=3D"_bl=
ank">https://rgb-org.github.io/</a></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><di=
v dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Dec 6, 2021, 11:21 Karl &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:gmkarl@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gmkarl@gmail.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0=
px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"auto"><div>Hi,</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I&#39=
;m not a bitcoin developer.<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote" dir=3D"auto">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Dec 6, 2021, 5:05 AM H=C3=A9c=
tor Jos=C3=A9 C=C3=A1rdenas Pacheco via bitcoin-dev &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:b=
itcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">=
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px soli=
d rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-wor=
d;"><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div dir=3D"auto=
" style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"overflow-=
wrap: break-word;">Hello all,<div><br></div><div>I=E2=80=99ve been thinking=
 about how OP_RETURN is being used to create and trade NFTs on Bitcoin (thi=
nk RarePepes, SoG and other new ones) and was wondering if it=E2=80=99s pos=
sible to</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"=
auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Do you have a link to any of these protoc=
ols?</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"ove=
rflow-wrap: break-word;"><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-wo=
rd;"><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div dir=3D"aut=
o" style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div> make transactions with this o=
pcode via Lightning.</div><div><br></div><div>More specific questions could=
 be:</div><div><ol><li>Can opcodes like OP_RETURN be inside a channel=E2=80=
=99s opening or closing transaction?</li><li>If so, could that OP_RETURN ch=
ange hands within that channel or network of channels?</li></ol></div></div=
></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"auto">OP_RETURNs do=
 not have ownership according to the bitcoin network.=C2=A0 It is not hard =
to define a protocol that associates an OP_RETURN with ownership, and owner=
ship could then be transferred via lightning by sending associated currency=
 via lightning.=C2=A0 Robustness improvements seem possible.</div><div dir=
=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px s=
olid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-=
word;"><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div dir=3D"a=
uto" style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"overfl=
ow-wrap: break-word;"><div><ol><li>If possible, could the OP_RETURN be divi=
sible? Could one person send a piece of a OP_RETURN just like one can do ri=
ght now on the primary ledger or would it need to maintain the OP_RETURN co=
de intact?</li></ol></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div>=
<div dir=3D"auto">OP_RETURNs themselves do not have ownership, but you can =
define a protocol that gives them divisible ownership, including via lightn=
ing.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"ove=
rflow-wrap: break-word;"><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-wo=
rd;"><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div dir=3D"aut=
o" style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div>I=E2=80=99m assuming that, if =
possible, this would need a protocol layer parallel to Bitcoin/Lightning th=
at stores and reads all Bitcoin transactions and the ones which involve the=
 node&#39;s channels as well as the ones with the OP_RETURN, just like Coun=
terParty does right now with the primary ledger.</div><div><br></div><div>T=
hank in advance.</div></div><div>
<div>=E2=80=94=E2=80=94<br><b>H=C3=A9ctor C=C3=A1rdenas<br></b>@hcarpach</d=
iv>
</div>

<br></div></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" rel=3D"noreferrer =
noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.li=
nuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
Lightning-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Lightning-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" rel=3D"noreferre=
r" target=3D"_blank">Lightning-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/lightning-dev=
" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfounda=
tion.org/mailman/listinfo/lightning-dev</a><br>
</blockquote></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">=
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail=
man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

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