Received: from sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.192] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-2.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1YQ42S-0000LX-W8 for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Tue, 24 Feb 2015 01:11:53 +0000 Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of bitpay.com designates 209.85.218.43 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.218.43; envelope-from=jgarzik@bitpay.com; helo=mail-oi0-f43.google.com; Received: from mail-oi0-f43.google.com ([209.85.218.43]) by sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) id 1YQ42S-0002Uz-3E for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Tue, 24 Feb 2015 01:11:52 +0000 Received: by mail-oi0-f43.google.com with SMTP id z81so16769959oif.2 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 2015 17:11:46 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=dWrVzX3D/iwg8VfxPyD0oKuptxD61Mc0hjNNCK/aL3g=; b=e7/vjhgrbRGdKt8MQSDr9N/DHKBSyfwhQerBr8yVMDDBPghUle+LsssV0i2zGs2CL0 hBBNNFj0vmyoljI7U0pTkv878zCIYdIsaWwVTglznvY9Sh6qD+G4yWykut5YuxbVE1x4 vR20ocsMCTVaQ1ahsWdMXSlIvB0Io3lhiJhtki4MIsRaWpOwoDCTMWuYpQJ7Tb4JJSh8 SPvw4ax9Df+nr6QGGUFHyma6qkjokrsC7GD+ZHCvTUL/9Od3rCg23v7she/b8SGLqXJr aOuHEMQZqZ8v3AswXE0q4xqNByE9Qtmfhdn6gFXQKEdw31Ug3yPvWDu+GMLpkoWfl42D j6iA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQldMDzVVyjFj84PxVIS7EdAfVN43GPDIppkEZnnfQVbgsFgp6HtogFoQxasfMc9i153+oe0 X-Received: by 10.202.174.69 with SMTP id x66mr8875267oie.79.1424740306640; Mon, 23 Feb 2015 17:11:46 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.202.219.10 with HTTP; Mon, 23 Feb 2015 17:11:26 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20150212064719.GA6563@savin.petertodd.org> <20150215212512.GR14804@nl.grid.coop> <54E11248.6090401@gmail.com> <20150219085604.GT14804@nl.grid.coop> From: Jeff Garzik Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2015 20:11:26 -0500 Message-ID: To: Eric Lombrozo Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Spam-Score: -1.6 (-) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record -0.1 DKIM_VALID_AU Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature X-Headers-End: 1YQ42S-0002Uz-3E Cc: Bitcoin Dev Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] replace-by-fee v0.10.0rc4 X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 01:11:53 -0000 On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 6:29 PM, Eric Lombrozo wrote: > As for 0-conf security, there are instances where 0-conf transactions make a > lot of sense - i.e. paying for utilities, ISP, web hosting, or other such > services which could be immediately shut off upon detection of a > double-spend. Indeed. 0-conf risk calculus must include business conditions. Business cases such as placing an order for a physical good, making an in-person purchase at a brick-n-mortar store, or subscriptions already have countermeasures in place if funds go astray. Order fulfilment can be stopped, subscriptions cancelled, photos handed to police. A thief wants to maximize return, which usually means either stealing a few large amounts or many small amounts. Double-spending against a SatoshiDICE clone is easy to automate. Many other purchase situations are difficult to repeat without getting caught, or the level of effort (cost) is greater than the payout of double-spending a small amount. 0-conf is typically only used for small amounts, where useful theft relies on high repetition. Purely online, mostly anonymous services like SatoshiDICE will be easily attacked if they accept 0-conf transactions as there is little customer/reputation relationship to leverage. However, that observation cannot be easily applied to most other businesses. -- Jeff Garzik Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/