Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.osuosl.org (smtp1.osuosl.org [140.211.166.138]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61EA5C0029; Sat, 3 Jun 2023 00:07:10 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp1.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31F3684619; Sat, 3 Jun 2023 00:07:10 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp1.osuosl.org 31F3684619 Authentication-Results: smtp1.osuosl.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=20221208 header.b=jKiiJIk1 X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from smtp1.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp1.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7nVmEm8x7n5O; Sat, 3 Jun 2023 00:07:09 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0 DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp1.osuosl.org C494B845C0 X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0 Received: from mail-lf1-x136.google.com (mail-lf1-x136.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::136]) by smtp1.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C494B845C0; Sat, 3 Jun 2023 00:07:08 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-lf1-x136.google.com with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-4f50470d77cso3627437e87.0; Fri, 02 Jun 2023 17:07:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1685750826; x=1688342826; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=29Ur7du4BcTuxynfoeT8pFf/nGvCpNKLJJFm/Z+bDuU=; b=jKiiJIk1OZ2HYH27r+CNsq4CduJrBy7voAvNP/oNd3AamFOtnztyVGl1GWJGa1U5gt nGuMD0r7dUq8Mj0WW6xIuDTCfgqRDlmG56V7oLpRqh5M0f9EaK07n9BAnTznPb/84xEY cBAA9ZewcZdiFHWyWSHEcCdgZtNijpz81ZhVdoF7E5AXLQJIxmIisokZ8RuYVwnJp28C H6Ujc+9i43n5YQMzO346HrACMpMpItMx5rKrYM/Q1hxId524fjtIYWjuS7pr2zPQv7WJ FbnDvY6yX/FfULQaXYwfH3wuzOOW+k5vDVDfDgkTbhsCAU7NKeUB/9M7Jc7NtshIDJ5u 3/yA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1685750826; x=1688342826; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=29Ur7du4BcTuxynfoeT8pFf/nGvCpNKLJJFm/Z+bDuU=; b=IIgSwZZdJUN6m4CjequTE0rEA6+RHqnRfSRfffW+LUQCOgk+TEjaR/a8W2qkrudXQl PP0pxhnESP2SbM3mjZWk0JSPAA0/t6mPekmegaWqVR1ZEDf0OmBH2xQY825EwNqo4AGG Yt1pfAdRpflXDZePzF6dwZZ+uYiHdS897srmH426R9FPmUCa/xcbXGstg9MwdBC5zCMT YYW1fOoF8i00zFPxLp2lNhQJ3mWzu+ROusjhUXwwAPAGODtvx8Dzff1GvOkYlkXhc/5E SpExZUD8wtZqCp+04xGeYYjwOQpBb9j2axNbHj7zvHrf7PqdgN38o+aidXy89rBBwo7U uRnw== X-Gm-Message-State: AC+VfDw/kwUxtBvwFhT45cJavEgn4J0NYOx4D1xdw0kvcD5hSRZJjY4e QNprTqvAzH7l67rDqymhTaexzW++agD2ulTsmb4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACHHUZ6zWW8Gha2YqgoP4PuCGD4ZGEoerGGmBuO5Y5x4wBIAILkWX8SlBU2WD7xQVlw2IbE/o4Uwck5eRwFAyeIS2WM= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:4856:0:b0:4f4:ce42:e8fb with SMTP id 22-20020ac24856000000b004f4ce42e8fbmr2550037lfy.4.1685750826011; Fri, 02 Jun 2023 17:07:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Bryan Bishop Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2023 19:06:53 -0500 Message-ID: To: Dr Maxim Orlovsky Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002a130b05fd2e7373" Cc: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org, lightning-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] [Lightning-dev] Bitcoin mail list needs an explicit moderation policy X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2023 00:07:10 -0000 --0000000000002a130b05fd2e7373 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Maxim, This is exceedingly boring. This is not a good use of your time. There are thousands of developers subscribed to this mailing list, and we should not waste their time, including this discussion. On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 6:44=E2=80=AFPM Dr Maxim Orlovsky via Lightning-dev = < lightning-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > What happened next was very unexpected. I am giving the core of the > conversation over Twitter after in Annex A - with the purpose to showcase > the problem I=E2=80=99d like to address in this e-mail. From the discussi= on, it is > clear that bitcoin-dev mail list lacks clear explicit moderation (or > peer-review) policies, which must be applied on a non-selective basis. > Also, Bryan Bishop, as the current moderator, had abused his powers in > achieving his agenda based on personal likes or dislikes. The conversatio= n > went nowhere, and the post got published only after a requirement from > Peter Todd [9]. > What exactly is the abuse being alleged here though? Why would it be surprising that your tweets didn't get the behavior you wanted out of me? In general mailing list moderators should not be sending items through based on twitter mobbing, that's a policy you can consider if you want to think about policies. Annex A: > > - @kanzure just like to check that our submission to bitcoin-dev > hasn=E2=80=99t got to spam < > https://twitter.com/lnp_bp/status/1664649328349069320?s=3D61&t=3D9A8uv= ggqKVKV3sT4HPlQyg > > > - A few mods are reviewing it < > https://twitter.com/kanzure/status/1664680893548572677?s=3D61&t=3D9A8u= vggqKVKV3sT4HPlQyg > > > - Oh, so a peer review is required to get to bitcoin-dev mail list? > Never read about that requirement anywhere < > https://twitter.com/lnp_bp/status/1664695061462777858?s=3D61&t=3D9A8uv= ggqKVKV3sT4HPlQyg>. > Seems like bitcoin-dev mail list requirements are now specific to the > author :) < > https://twitter.com/dr_orlovsky/status/1664695668475142144?s=3D61&t=3D= 9A8uvggqKVKV3sT4HPlQyg > > > - Not the greatest email to pull this over. I'll double check but > pretty sure the antagonization is boring me. < > https://twitter.com/kanzure/status/1664705038315409420?s=3D61&t=3D9A8u= vggqKVKV3sT4HPlQyg > > > - Not sure I understand what you are saying. Can you please clarify? < > https://twitter.com/dr_orlovsky/status/1664705280393859103?s=3D61&t=3D= 9A8uvggqKVKV3sT4HPlQyg > > > - You are boring me and these antics don't make me want to go click > approve on your email. < > https://twitter.com/kanzure/status/1664705509147004946?s=3D61&t=3D9A8u= vggqKVKV3sT4HPlQyg > > > > Excluding your (and my) other tweets and any other collaborators' tweets from your report is kind of weird. I think you should include the other tweets that you were sending me because it provides context. Zooming out, the entirety of your complaint seems to be about moderation queue latency and delay. Why would you, or anyone, allege that that moderator latency is indicative of me specifically not liking you? Wouldn't it be more likely that the other moderators and I are looking at your email and talking with each other asynchronously about whether to suggest edits/reject/submit? I suspect you may be attributing malice to me because I recently asked you to stop tagging me on quantum woo and you might have taken that negatively - please keep in mind that not everyone believes in quantum consciousness or is interested in hearing about it, and it's okay for people like me to not want to engage on each of your different interests. There is some overlap in our interests outside of crypto, but that isn't one of them. I noticed some odd tweets from you to me after that, so that's why that incident came to my mind as a possible explanation for this. Thank you. - Bryan https://twitter.com/kanzure --0000000000002a130b05fd2e7373 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Maxim,

This is exceedingly bori= ng. This is not a good use of your time. There are thousands of developers = subscribed to this mailing list, and we should not waste their time, includ= ing this discussion.

On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 6:44= =E2=80=AFPM Dr Maxim Orlovsky via Lightning-dev <lightning-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org= > wrote:
What happened next was v= ery unexpected. I am giving the core of the conversation over Twitter after= in Annex A - with the purpose to showcase the problem I=E2=80=99d like to = address in this e-mail. From the discussion, it is clear that bitcoin-dev m= ail list lacks clear explicit moderation (or peer-review) policies, which m= ust be applied on a non-selective basis. Also, Bryan Bishop, as the current= moderator, had abused his powers in achieving his agenda based on personal= likes or dislikes. The conversation went nowhere, and the post got publish= ed only after a requirement from Peter Todd [9].

What exactly is the abuse being alleged here though? Why would i= t be surprising that your tweets didn't get the behavior you wanted out= of me? In general mailing list moderators should not be sending items thro= ugh based on twitter mobbing, that's a policy you can consider if you w= ant to think about policies.

Annex A:


Excluding your (and my) other twe= ets and any other collaborators' tweets from your report is kind of wei= rd. I think you should include the other tweets that you were sending me be= cause it provides context. Zooming out, the entirety of your complaint seem= s to be about moderation queue latency and delay.=C2=A0Why would you, or an= yone, allege that that moderator latency is indicative of me specifically n= ot liking you? Wouldn't it be more likely that the other moderators and= I are looking at your email and talking with each other asynchronously abo= ut whether to suggest edits/reject/submit?

I suspe= ct you may be attributing malice to me because I recently=C2=A0asked you to= stop tagging me on quantum woo and you might have taken that negatively - = please keep in mind that not everyone believes in quantum consciousness or = is interested in hearing about it, and it's okay for people like me to = not want to engage on each of your different interests. There is some overl= ap in our interests outside of crypto, but that isn't one of them. I no= ticed some odd tweets from you to me after that, so that's why that inc= ident came to my mind as a possible explanation for this.

Thank you.

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