Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.osuosl.org (smtp1.osuosl.org [140.211.166.138]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F401C0032 for ; Tue, 1 Aug 2023 15:11:56 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp1.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 796CA81399 for ; Tue, 1 Aug 2023 15:11:56 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp1.osuosl.org 796CA81399 Authentication-Results: smtp1.osuosl.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key, unprotected) header.d=messagingengine.com header.i=@messagingengine.com header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=fm3 header.b=yMMZxc3P X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.703 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.703 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from smtp1.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp1.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tETmJeYThH3M for ; Tue, 1 Aug 2023 15:11:54 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: delayed 448 seconds by postgrey-1.37 at util1.osuosl.org; Tue, 01 Aug 2023 15:11:54 UTC DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp1.osuosl.org 83D948129A Received: from wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.25]) by smtp1.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 83D948129A for ; Tue, 1 Aug 2023 15:11:54 +0000 (UTC) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AEA13200916; Tue, 1 Aug 2023 11:04:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 01 Aug 2023 11:04:25 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:content-type:date:date :feedback-id:feedback-id:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:reply-to:sender:subject :subject:to:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; t=1690902264; x=1690988664; bh=S4Ya7XJfMjJ1C suIjcK1PKbbPz14zABGK+OSyPnlq40=; b=yMMZxc3PrKC32lSIkEO+j8xPWXu2X kRw72MNcYpUUKJgI4seUFLqfCAKOLk1kbpGV6b9x5FjqkjhO8+9jQtOwFKH2Jmv8 /pvfqz1Ztwbuie+7pI77TfPC1fOl4xhnntyiATTioch5NmS0tYCSqlwFACjHxaaw qWcjiZ9oKv549BoJ9u+xHqzbANpElk2cMWWY/xcBiMqnHp3KhlsktymPWYQYt8xf Flu9ULuSVuuHjop34A01StbnHhfTKOkWhmwjkVkzPzj1cSLmUTKQc2E7cVzb08P6 QePAcCgpbXadgl35yyM4CLz1WYzMnreqMY7o9/2SgAZ/QoOn4nEq6yEiA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedviedrjeeigdekudcutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpeffhffvuffkfhggtggujgesghdtreertddtjeenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgvrhcu vfhougguuceophgvthgvsehpvghtvghrthhouggurdhorhhgqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrh hnpeejkeeuheekffetfefftdegjeekteeiveehieeugefgueekgeevueevhefghedtkeen ucffohhmrghinhepphgvthgvrhhtohguugdrohhrghenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpe dtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehpvghtvgesphgvthgvrhhtohguugdrohhr gh X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: i525146e8:Fastmail Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Tue, 1 Aug 2023 11:04:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 2C0805F830; Tue, 1 Aug 2023 15:04:18 +0000 (UTC) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2023 15:04:18 +0000 From: Peter Todd To: Daniel Lipshitz , Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="SpLo06tN9XRMljEW" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Pull-req to enable Full-RBF by default X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2023 15:11:56 -0000 --SpLo06tN9XRMljEW Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jul 31, 2023 at 01:26:11PM +0300, Daniel Lipshitz via bitcoin-dev w= rote: > This would unnecessarily and extremely negatively impact merchants and > users who choose to accept 0-conf while using mitigation tools like GAP60= 0. > This negative impact could be avoided by simply adding first seen safe ru= le > - ie a trx can be replaced but needs to include the original outputs. >=20 > At GAP600 we continue to see strong use of our service for BTC we have se= en > circa 350k unique trx hash per month (over the last 3 months) requested to > our platform. Our clients include - Coinpayments, Coinspaid and Changelly. I checked, and Coinpayments and Coinspaid are both merchant processors. I c= ould not find any example of actual merchants using their platform accepting unconfirmed payments. I also could not find any documentation on their webs= ites indicating unconfirmed transaction acceptance. As for Changelly, their website says right on the front that "With an avera= ge transaction speed of 5=E2=80=9340 minutes, we ensure you can swiftly take a= dvantage of market opportunities." Obivously, 5 minutes is not an unconfirmed payment. Additionally, I verified myself by doing test transactions with BIP125 disa= bled and an adequate fee: unconfirmed payments are not accepted by Changelly. As their exchange flow clearly says "Once BTC is confirmed in the blockchain, we=E2=80=99ll start exchanging it to ." You need to provide an genuine example of an actual merchant who accepts unconfirmed transactions as payment, and actually relies on first-seen behavior. > We have not seen any impact of full RBF on double spend rates for our trxs Based on the above findings, this appears to be because you don't actually = have any clients who rely on unconfirmed payments. --=20 https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org --SpLo06tN9XRMljEW Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEE0RcYcKRzsEwFZ3N5Lly11TVRLzcFAmTJHu4ACgkQLly11TVR LzdAcxAAjKtcMBi4MdsVKLlOvQNulKUN8TDN9a4Aw6X2YfANrpvXjIWVLSta5D4t GVGJMhKLz1qZgO7tfQH8yVmdSXQM2tYpc8oIBdz+6P/WjFlvxnsgdBsAwwPaoR+j mWb0/6lWvv+2ICUiAEigu8UgXS6/+wbK0kMCzgSATAPPgzkbSaiL1pk+idF4fpiV DE1cL8Ia0h85s+i6QwhPTwGrccMebgoYVAR7QD6J/xrLuW37icd+pF2LfhNbSBnl aJq5yu2JRomf06QAPB6x7MtIL3TOn73c0kF3xB1Q4ya/gLPcv/k4ZR5jzbbxEnPH slYj91cPzBNQUgBR0bBqnMphG1e/NUq+UOALN1TorcKrH6pnWyk9qWv4gluu2aC5 ZTBmdqJiDWDIl7ID+QAkfnZSy3qXOHllPsAc0WjFUq4H4/PH91DSq+b/9AsmP86f WBRW8n3hVyApWXpF2XsBNi4bvmFmNq+JMw/M/zppNdrO+NzYffUhyVXfPImn1sK2 Ow+r2KLJcEvyCGCcl3nwztIV16qCjPN5O17Z5oKhA1CsCJJfLR/DhHDyadnLW6UY wD9eScRS9nCZ8HvuMlD+SJlfssXDsluhJwMedz+X0DD34IVtu284bkgqK1G1NEOG +wYyO9LX4Jyl/5qASCTCp8RmT+olNQfJEgALlDwvyhVYApeVGzo= =L8AD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --SpLo06tN9XRMljEW--