On Sat, 19 Oct 1996 Suresh Naidu <snaidu@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca> Wrote:
>Dignity comes with freedom
Correct, and you want to take away the freedom of people in the third world
to work how they want to work because you think you know what's best for them,
better than the workers themselves.
>visit a sweatshop. Nobody likes working there.
Not true! They like working there much better than not working there, that's
why they're working there. I'm a little embarrassed at pointing out something
so obvious but apparently it's necessary, and yes, I realize it's a tautology,
but condemn them all you want, tautologies do have one great virtue, they're
true.
>A choice between wage-slavery and starving is not much of a
>choice.
And in the name of morality you will eliminate that unpleasant choice the poor
must make by eliminating his wages. It would be more humane to shoot him in
the head, starvation is not a pleasant way to die.
>If everybody was treated with mutual respect in libertarianism
>then it would succeed, but that is the case with any form of
>government or lack thereof.
Love is a wonderful thing, but it is very rare, even Nanotechnology can't
supply that particular commodity in abundance. One reason Socialism always
fails is that it demands a huge amount of love, far more than the Human Race,
or even the Transhuman Race, could ever supply. Some people just don't like
some people. Readers of this list will find it hard to believe but incredible
as it sounds, some people don't even like me!
I don't want to rely on the kindness of strangers, because that kindness is
not reliable. The farmer who grows food does not love me, the trucker who
moves that food does not love me, the grocer who sells that food does not
love me, yet the market organizes all these people and many more in such a
way that they put food on my table.
>with jobs rotated, everybody has the opportunity to clean
toilets
That's exactly what China did in the cultural revelation, they made hart
surgeons, the lucky ones they didn't kill for the crime of being educated,
clean toilets. They forced Nobel Prize wining scientists at the point of a
bayonet to plow rice fields. That was over 20 years ago and science in China
is only now starting to recover. Is this really a model you want to follow?
>scientific progress would increase through a better education
>system that educates all, rather than those who can afford it.
Theories must always be based a the bedrock of fact, let's see if the
experimental data supports your theory. In the poorest slums Socialism
provides the schools, in those same slums Capitalism provides the cars.
There are FAR more good cars than good schools in those slums.
>everybody will respect your property rights.
You said that private property was the source of all evil, now you're talking
about my property rights, I don't think you've thought this through.
>you'll have to ask permission to build your house. You can't
>arbitrarily go out and use public resources without asking.
Wow, what a huge change that would be! Today I must get a building permit,
but in your world I must get permission to build, two completely different
things.
>The advantage of the commune system is that one can leave
>and join another commune that works more appropriatly to
>your beliefs.
In your world Capitalism is not allowed anywhere, what would be the point in
leaving a commune if you compel me to join another one exactly like it?
>you can leave, so nobody will get angry at you. Just pick up
>and go join someone else before people get pissed off at you.
I don't want to "join someone else" I just want the Socialists leaches to
leave me the hell alone, I am perfectly willing to leave them alone.
>it's going to be very hard to oppress somebody when they can
>leave to a place where they actually have a say. So you'll
>have a commune of capitalist owners with nobody to employ.
I would be quite happy to take that risk, but from what you've said before I
don't think you're sincere about letting me do this. As soon as it becomes
obvious that the Capitalist commune (a contradiction in terms if there ever
was one) is prospering I fear the socialist army will put it out of business
because Suresh Naidu has decreed it to be "unfair". Please, tell me I'm
wrong about that.
>Ever notice how the most staunch defenders of capitalism are
>the ones who benefit from it the most.
I think it's an object fact that capitalism can produce wealth faster than
any other known system, I also think it's fair, but that's a subjective call
and you're correct, I can't claim to be unbiased because I have benefited
personally from capitalism, just like everybody else.
>Victims of capitalism tend not to support it as rabidly as
>the businessmen.
I wouldn't know anything about that, I've never heard of victims of
capitalism, although I've certainly heard of poor people.
>you give the factory to those who work in it.
And how will this mob make business decisions? How much steel should we make
next year and what types? Should we make more pig iron or stainless steel?
What sort of iron ore should we buy and from who? Who should we get to
transport it? Where should we get our coal? Should we make our own coke or
buy it from somebody else? Should we give ourselves a rase or use that money
to purchase new equipment so we can make Vanadium steel? Should we branch
out and start making composite fiber material or is that too risky?
If you can tell me with a straight face that having the workers vote on all
this and much more would produce better decisions than the market, then you
must be a very good poker player.
>>Democracy sucks. .
>Yeah! Lets have a dictatorship. Bill Gates and Lee Iaccoca
>are our rulers! Damn anyone who can't afford to pay for
justice.
Democracy doesn't work because elections are dumb, an idiotic way of
communicating your wishes, there are much better ways. Every day I send
hundreds of exquisitely precise messages to the Free Market telling it what
I want it to do. I also get to compare brands, I can't do that In a democracy
because I'm not voting for goods or services or even policies, I just get to
choose between two grab bags of promises every 4 years, and democracy is the
best form of government, the best of a bad lot.
When I vote in the economy by making a purchase I am sure to get it,
I always win. When I vote for the grab bag I may or may not get it.
At any rate, the chances that my vote will influence things is so small
that it's not worth my time to study the issues very deeply, the result is
that the politician with the better hairdo gets to make the decisions.
John k Clark johnkc@well.com
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.i
iQCzAgUBMmpgLX03wfSpid95AQFG3gTwiokfMKEXT9RYeUGQHYAixxAoZqJvGQ1C
lBZfCSOjN6DxEIPRaNmh3JFbtWRFwJpx7JE4s/0DwpMsL6TxfKyYB4Jrss5Nl75T
Qc1Vo8wWCjdqx4g4lE0nN7QwkJNfum8s+B8Kfb7+JpWhJZkLlBTJ8MQgi8QeJbq6
gLwTo5HoFS+KTwiOVTGknvESAP8BUfVuLBksxleiWgLus7K/fAI=
=vuTI
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----