RE: Rebuild the World Trade Center

From: Adrian `Guru Zeb` Harper (guruzeb@blueyonder.co.uk)
Date: Thu Sep 13 2001 - 11:42:35 MDT

At 16:38 13/09/01, you wrote:

> At 09:20 PM 12/09/2001 -0400, Jerry Mitchell wrote:
> >We were attacked because are a symbol of Capitalism and a
> culture based on
> >reason.
>
> Whoa! You are sounding as fanatical as those who attacked
> you. Capitalism
> has little to do with why the attack occurred, and I am sure
> they feel they
> have reason on their side and that they believe they have
> grievances worth
> committing terrible deeds over.
>
> If you just blindly wave the flag then you can just about
> guarantee it will
> happen again. America is not the pure-hearted nation that you seem to
> think. Bin Laden, Gaddaffi, Noriega, Hussein, Marcos,
> Suharto, and other
> nasties were all helped by USA to to do terrible things.
> Truly *awful*
> things were done in Chile and Cambodia that make the WTC pale
> in comparison.
>
> Granted that the dickheads who did the despicable acts on the
> 11th can
> never truly justify such crimes, nevertheless you must ask yourself
> honestly why these things really happened or you will just be
> sticking your
> head in the sand.
>
>
> >It should be built higher and stronger to illustrate our defiance of
> >cultures based on collectivism, religion, and irrationality.
> Make it a
> >monument to achievement and the human spirit. "Reach upward"
> shouldn't just
> >be a metaphor.
>
> The sybolism is beautiful, but be careful that you are not
> just wanting a
> higher altar upon which to sacrifice more innocents for
> warped foreign policy.
>
>
>          - Miriam

I can understand a lot of anger over the recent incidents. But aren't any of you flag wavers
even remotely interested in looking at the full spectrum of issues, that has caused the US to find
itself so at odds with many factions with Muslim nations.

Yes Islam is often repressive, intolerant, and violent. But Islam has not always been like that.

-xx- Damien X-) Wrote
>>And if Islam is so nasty, how come Moslem countries were historically more
>>tolerant of other religions than Christian Europe? Christians and Jews were
>>second-class citizens in the Arab Empire, but they were citizens. In Europe
>>Moors weren't, and Jews were confined to the ghetto, or subjected to pogroms,
>>at least for a long time.



Miriam, have you not been paying attention to what they are saying? They
think we are the great evil! They hate western culture because it is based
on the principles of self-esteem, reason, and Capitalism, and not sacrifice,
religion, and collectivism. How dare we tip our champagne glasses when
people are starving. How dare we indulge in air-conditioning when there are
so many without it. How dare we be a rich, pleasurable, rational society
when there are so many that aren't!

Your the one missing the point, these are not the reasons that the terrorist constantly circle
around American interests. You only have to examine the statements they make themselves
to realize that. Bin Ladden is a multi millionaire how can you reasonably suggest that a man
with such wealth at his finger tips ( much as i understand it earned on the freemarket ) is jealous
of US wealth.

Bin Ladden and his follows primary grievance with the US seem to be based around
American support of Israel. And the what he and his supporters see as an unjust level
of violence direct at the Palestinians.

Blindly supporting Israel no matter what, look over this list and tell me that at least a
few are not justified.
Fact:-
http://www.angelfire.com/ia/palestinefoever/UNresolutions.html
Even if you take the view that the UN ( over the period covered )
was controlled entirely by Arabs and Soviets which is absurd. I find it hard to ignore
so many resolutions.
Despite all this violations the US has rarely made any kind of criticisms of Israel's policy.
Seven of the resolutions concern Geneva convention violations !
Just to make the point i am NOT any kind of Anti-Semite.
IMHO America supports Israel for some of the reasons it supported Iraq against Iran. Because
it is politically expedient to do so, nothing to do with fairness or balance.

Of course non of this justifies crashing jets into buildings, but you must be willing to try and understand
the true motives of these ppl. Rather than just painting them as jealous representatives of
an inferior culture.

This is a war of ideas. We are fighting
an philosophy here. Bin laten is one little manifestation of that system.
Kill him and 500 more will be cranked out. Its the system that needs to be
removed and ASAP. You didn't see those dancing in the streets? They are just
as guilty as Bin Laden because they support the governments that support the
terrorist. I cant imagine that this list would be in such disagreement on
theses issues. Those countries are the most luddite, anti-technology,
anti-capitalist, anti-reason countries you could find. You go right ahead
and think about particular concretes and don't try to link these concretes
and understand the relationship. What is the commonality in all these
countries other then their intense hatred of America for its greatness? Why
do they hate us? Well maybe if we don't look for a reason and address it,
the problem will go away.

It also amazes me that on a list where towers/elevators to space would be
discussed, there would be the suggestion not building them because they
might be torn down or might be dangerous.

Try to break free of the concretes of the issue and deal with the overlaying
abstractions. Bin Laden needs to be dealt with, but what created him? What
mindset and philosophical viewpoint is he coming from.

Here is another fact you seem to want to completely ignore, concerning Bin Laddens
creation.

Fact:-
Bin Ladden was trained by the CIA in the first place. Huge home goal
not the first remember Ho Chi Minh, and Noreiga, and there are others.
This also happens with Nations US policy supports Countries who can be used to
achieve convenient foreign policy goals. Like covertly supporting Iraq in it's war against
Iran. Think i've made my point on this one.


This one is a matter of opinion, one which i think has been tragically born out by recent events.
Primarily that successive US administrations have taken what i call the "World Sheriff" foreign
policy perspective. Being willing to essential bully and threaten other nations into compliance
with US desires. Now some of the policies pursued have be to every ones benefit and completely
reasonable.
However it does not take a genius to work out how a tactic of coercion generated long standing
bad feeling and hatred within some of those nations.
I am NOT anti-American some US foreign policy however is badly flawed.
I think this gives us a few points to discuss, and please lets keep this a discussion, the only reason i raise
these issues is because imho i see one of the most interesting and dynamic cultures on the planet making
some huge mistakes. And i am baffle by the apparent lack of perspective on them.

As am getting tired of saying. Of course non of this excuses the kind of actions perpetrated on Tuesday.
But to ignore the full range of elements contributing to the situation is not only dishonest, but almost guarantees
some form of repeat performance.

Maybe some of you guys should watch some no domestic news channels. I recommend BBC News 24
they have had several reports from relevant experts and reporters from around the world. Who have highlighted
exactly the issue that i keep raising.

I'd really like to here some of your comments on the points i've raised here. As i've noticed over the past few
days that most of the sabre rattling flag wavers, have developed and amazing capacity for complete ignoring post contain
direct information that challenges their opinions


Zeb


Ill tell you its one
that very popular here in our country and that you will find his ideas
reflected in numerous circles here ranging from the environmental/anti-man
movement, to the religions here. They all agree that the individual needs to
be placed on the alter of self-sacrifice to the masses. Both the extreme
left in this country and the extreme right believe exactly as Bin Laden,
that the individual is nothing compared to the
environment/religion/masses/cultural group. History is the battle of ideas,
and if you don't support your own system with the full belief that you are
correct, they you are going consigned to the quagmire of guilt that so many
around now seemed to be steeped in. The big enemies we should be fighting on
our front (as well as those foreign) are guilt and fear. Most of the guilt
is because we still have in this age of moon walks and supercomputers, that
we still possess the philosophy of cave men. Those that carry that
philosophy, and its a majority of people for the most part, deserve it and
the guilt.
Jerry

"FURIOUS GREEN DREAMS, LAY SLEEPING IN STATE,
BUT SOON THE GREAT JELLY SHALL RISE FROM THE
DEPTHS,
AND ALL THOSE WHO MOCKED SHALL KNOW THEIR FATE
IS SEALED"
                               Guru Zeb,
                               Hacienda,
                          Manchester, 1989


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