Damien wrote:
>You couldn't prove it by me. I could multiply my material rewards manyfold
>by writing franchise or sharecrop fiction, or better yet by churning out
>slick mega-bestsellers called QUANTUM ASTROLOGY. Would take less work and
>earn more money.
I *think* Brian Atkins wrote:
I think the primary goal is to be happy - having more money is going to be a huge factor in that, possibly the most important, and certainly the second or third. The simple reason is that you need money to get many of the things which make you happy.
(end)
Thank you for saying such an obvious thing!! I am tired of hearing how money is not a very important part of the happiness equation! And is not really necessary beyond keeping one fed and with basic shelter! I recommend a book to you all called "Warm Hearts, Cold Cash." It really shows the relationship between "love" and finances.
you continue:
For example, without a computer and full internet
access, the happiness in my life would be cut in half, at least. I need money to be able to afford a computer and internet access.
(end)
Same here!
Brian wrote:
You, I assume, would not be happy writing a book on "quantum astrology". I could make more money by selling meth, prostituting myself, or robbing people, but I would be unhappy doing so, and I have a personal rule that I would only work in an office which required me to wear a tie for at least 20% more money. Material rewards are extremely important, but nobody is saying they are the only kind.
(end)
How does the old saying go?,"a person of integrity is never truly poor."
Damien wrote:
>explosion in rents and other prices in the area. The poor buggers seemed to
>be working as hard as humanly possible, two jobs cleaning, mother and kids
>sleeping in the one shockingly expensive room... I guess if you paid them
>more they'd work *really* hard.
(end)
Brian wrote:
If they were "smart", yes. I put "smart" in quotes because it is too simple a word - but if they had value of themselves and their well being, and the
willingness to change...
(end)
Damien wrote:
>Watched a TV program the other night on the efforts by cleaning and other
>maintenance staff in Silicon Valley to earn enough to >cope with the...
(end)
Brian wrote:
They must rationally figure out how to attain goals which would make them happy, and then to actually ACT on the results, then they would have more money and more happiness. The simplest thing to do would be to move to someplace with lower rent.
Another answer is to get a new job. Find out what you want to do, find out what skills you need to do that, and attain those skills. Anyone, with rare
exception, is capable of doing this.>
(end)
This advice is more for someone like me and not so much a migrant from the third-world with a family to support and a very limited education.
I am great at thinking about things, analyzing the situation, but I either come to a complete loss on what to do about things(such as my career path), or I come up with lengthy written plans about a goal which I never actually do.
My mother recently counselled me to make a decision(regarding a romantic relationship) and than ACT. She said I tend to stumble over my feet and not take action in life. I suppose I must sometimes make a decisive decision and live with the consequences.
Damien wrote:
>My hope is that, as we approach the Spike, most of those odious jobs will
>disappear, and new ways will be found to assure the people displaced from
>work of a decent basic subsistence.
That is my wish too! I hope to operate a replicator when they are in use at the large retail store I work at! I hope I have an easier time than I did learning to make keys... "Well Ma'am, it sort of still looks like a key, done as a Picasso sculpture!"
Brian wrote:
The people doing them already have other options of finding quite more then basic subsistence, as you have. They are just not taking them. Why is this?
(end)
I think they are limited by a lack of money and also confidence in themselves to do much better than they already are. A few of the brightest and most ambitious(a connection there?) will move up in life.
Damien wrote:
>You're not paying attention here, buddy. Really. I'm talking about people
>who seem mostly to be migrants, who are doing the traditional heartbreaking
>migrant thing of investing their own miserable lives working their arses
>off doing the scutwork so their kids can go to school and get training for
>those better jobs. (Which might not be there in another couple of decades,
>of course.)
(end)
Zeb wrote:
I'm not sure what you're saying - are migrants incapable of improving themselves in the way you or I have? Do you not see this as condescending? "no - you don't understand what kinds of people they are". And I don't understand how sacrificing for their children would make it neccesary to move to someplace with high rent.
There's a catch-22 - is it possible for someone to be implicitly superior to anyone else, via genetics or whatever? I believe that, no it is not. In rare cases, such as mental retardation, someone is at a natural disadvantage, but the fact that some retarded people are able to get jobs and make a decent
living shows that the disadvantage is not as pronounced as you would think.
And if I am wrong, and it is possible that anyone is superior to anyone else, then you would expect and want it to be reflected in differences in income.
(end)
And it is!! I am not as smart as the doctor I sometimes visit, and believe me, he makes more money than I do! There are obviously gradations of intelligence among humans and so not everyone can be an engineer, professor or programmer.
I come from a family of engineers on my father's side and pharmacists, professors and m.d.'s on my mothers. I may carry some good genes but I did not get them for myself! Higher mathematics and science are severely troubling for me. I would love to be able to go into a field where I could be sure of a good income.
My former state of Alaska voc rehab counselor, a very "compassionate" person said no moderate to severe learning disabled person had ever in her "care" gotten an undergraduate degree or gone to grad school. And she said that even if they were to graduate with a master's, they would not be able to hack it in the professional world. I found her attitude of "it may be a bad investment to try" rather sickening.
I wound up not getting picked up by the program. My college grades were not the B average she wanted, but that was more due to laziness, clinical depression and disorganization than my combination of learning disabilities. Also she wanted my major to be "written in stone" and that bothered me since I don't know exactly what I want to do yet. I had thought teaching but I hear so many negative things about it.
phoenix@ugcs.caltech.edu wrote:
Improve myself? I'm a lazy, lucky, First World kid. Improvement has been poured down my throat from birth. Tons of books in the house, intellectual
parents, the genes (what else?) able to bootstrap from that environment and teach myself to read before I was 3, piano lessons, gifted classes and fast-paced programs in the public schools, magnet high school...
(end)
I am glad you can realize how fortunate you are. You were given the best of nurture AND nature.
he continues:
access to computers and programming classes and zero difficulty in visualizing a computer's operation
(I TA'ed one such class ;) the students clearly varied from completely not needing me to being completely clue-proof. And it looked like they were trying, not that we were experienced teachers or anything)
(end)
Any teacher would realize the gradations of intellect among us. Some are simply more intelligent, while even for some bright ones, it just takes a lot longer to learn the task at hand.
he continues:
followed by Caltech and Silicon Valley, with jobs and high salaries dropping into my lap. Vs. someone born in a Third World village, no running water or modern
medicine, minimal books or electricity, not surrounded by a literate and industrial society so that the values of such can seep into their soul through
osmosis... yet they move to a foreign country, without money or the language (but probably with knowing previous migrants in the area), working as long or
longer hours than the most dedicated IPO hunter, at more physically taxing and mind-numbing work.
Improve themselves? Far more so than I have. But from so far behind... their children might catch up, some of them.
(end)
Their brightest and most ambitious children only would probably catch up. I think there is a middle ground here in the sense that phoenix and Damien have a very realistic take on the situation immigrants(and other people) find themselves in, and yet Brian is right in saying, "hey, if they REALLY want to, they can change or at least try to!"
Zeb wrote:
> There's a catch-22 - is it possible for someone to be implicitly superior to
> anyone else, via genetics or whatever? I believe that, no it is not. In rare
> cases, such as mental retardation, someone is at a natural disadvantage, but
phoenix wrote:
You see the human brain as binary? Either retarded, or infinitely plastic and trainable? All normal brains are alike? A gradation of mental abilities
doesn't seem more likely, especially after the vicissitudes of education?
(end)
Exactly! Being learning disabled made my public education days hard. I was diagnosed in the second grade and went through the slingerland program. I had a horrible time memorizing the multiplication tables(I did, but it took forever) and my rote memory is still weak. I remember being in classes and just not "getting it" in math, english or science. I loved social studies, creative reading and writing classes, and anything taught by a certain science teacher.
> else, then you would expect and want it to be reflected in differences in
> income. Sure. But that doesn't mean being blind to the misery of others.
phoenix writes:
How'd we start this, anyway? Oh, right: Bonnie said people work harder in
proportion to financial reward, and Damien B. pointed out that the migrants
are working harder for less ultimate reward than, say, me. And they're
grateful for the opportunity, compared to back home.
(end)
I have Filipino friends who tell me they can support whole extended families back home with just part of their paycheck. They miss home but love the buying power of the dollar.
phoenix continues:
Hell. People like me don't even 'work', ideally. Yeah, we want money for
creature comforts and toys. But after that work should be intellectual play,
or at least a mixture of that and hired labor for someone else.
(end)
Work as intellectual play? That must be a nice way to make a living! I sometimes have a problem with the saying that white collar workers don't actually WORK for a living! I would think the stresses would be more mental and simply less physical. I could see how white collar work could actually be more stressful. But the autonomy one tends to get in at least some white collar work must be nice.
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 05:19:01 -0400From: Brian Atkins <brian@posthuman.com>
Subject: Re: More Green PartyDamien Broderick wrote:>
> At 03:51 AM 29/06/00 GMT, Zeb wrote:>
> >>Watched a TV program the other night on the efforts by cleaning and other
> >>maintenance staff in Silicon Valley to earn enough to cope with the
> >>explosion in rents and other prices in the area. The poor buggers seemed to
> >>be working as hard as humanly possible>
> >if they had value of themselves and their well being, and the
> >willingness to rationally figure out how to attain goals which would make
> >them happy, and then to actually ACT on the results, then they would have
> >more money and more happiness.>
> Dazzling! Then the Oracle offices would never get cleaned, the lavatories
> would stink, and all the geniuses in Silicon Valley would die of some vile
> gastric lurgy.>
> >The simplest thing to do would be to move to someplace with lower rent.
> >Another answer is to get a new job.>
> You're not paying attention here, buddy. Really. I'm talking about people
> who seem mostly to be migrants, who are doing the traditional heartbreaking
> migrant thing of investing their own miserable lives working their arses
> off doing the scutwork so their kids can go to school and get training for
> those better jobs. (Which might not be there in another couple of decades,
> of course.)>
> Move to somewhere with a lower rent. In the Valley. I love it. They're
> already in garages and subdividing their tiny apartments. Be serious.>
> It's perhaps easier to think this through by looking at the area's school
> teachers. They don't get paid enough to rent decent houses in such an
> inflated bubble world. Yeah, they could and maybe should move out, en
> masse. Let the cyber zillionaires send their kids to computer kindergarten.
> Oh, but it's the *market*, it's the *market*...
Brian wrote:
Yes exactly. They get what they settle for. Simple as that. No whining allowed. If you ain't happy then do something to make yourself happy or don't. I don't care. I can tell you this- if the teachers all moved out of the valley the people there would have no trouble raising the $$$ required to start up their own private schools. Who gives a #### about public schools anyway? I'm sorry but If you ain't happy then do something to make yourself happy or don't.
(end)
"Yes exactly. [You] get what [you] settle for. Simple as that. No whining allowed. If you ain't happy then do something to make yourself happy or don't."
I need to have this put in large print and framed on my wall at home! I have so many problems in my life but don't move my feet.
My problems so far...
1. Clinical depression and I suspect a.d.d.
2. Unsure of type of education and career to pursue
3. Conflict of lifestyles/paradigms because of my religion(mormon) and transhumanist/cryonicist memes. A part of me wants to reject one over the other, but I feel I can't do this. I need my faith, but I need this list also. The desire is still strong in me for finding a mate of my faith, but real conflict could arise. "Hey honey, ever hear about cryonics?" lol
4. I have talked about becoming muscular and fit for years, but have yet to do it.
5. I realize the importance of keeping a journal but simply don't out of tiredness, laziness, etc.
6. I am terribly disorganized. I store half my stuff in boxes and garbage bags! I have lost so many wonderful emails too.
7. I don't have a driver's license and suspect I may never get one. My learning disabilities are such(bad sense of direction, traffic flow and rules sometimes confuse me) that it may be beyond me. I feel inadequate in terms of work and dating due to this. Anchorage is a car city with a barely adequate bus system. Riding a bike in winter is not a smart idea to say the least. I want to stay in Alaska I suppose to continue getting my annual dividend checks.
Anyway, I have found this a fascinating thread. Many of you are so fortunate to have been blessed with in at least some cases, good parents, or at least good genes which enable you to learn and master the difficult subjects which lead to success in our modern world. I feel honored to read and learn from you each day.
I think I am finally getting to a place where I want to move forward and change some things in my life. I think trying out Deseryl will be phase one. I look forward to any advice any of you may have for me.
sincerely,
John
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