From extropians-request@extropy.org Fri Nov 25 09:02:33 1994 Return-Path: extropians-request@extropy.org Received: from usc.edu (usc.edu [128.125.253.136]) by chaph.usc.edu (8.6.8.1/8.6.4) with SMTP id JAA25999 for ; Fri, 25 Nov 1994 09:02:30 -0800 Received: from news.panix.com by usc.edu (4.1/SMI-3.0DEV3-USC+3.1) id AA09349; Fri, 25 Nov 94 09:02:27 PST Received: (from exi@localhost) by news.panix.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id MAA09800; Fri, 25 Nov 1994 12:02:21 -0500 Date: Fri, 25 Nov 1994 12:02:21 -0500 Message-Id: <199411251702.MAA09800@news.panix.com> To: Extropians@extropy.org From: Extropians@extropy.org Subject: Extropians Digest #94-11-369 - #94-11-380 X-Extropian-Date: November 25, 374 P.N.O. [12:01:36 UTC] Reply-To: extropians@extropy.org X-Mailer: MailWeir 1.0 Status: RO Extropians Digest Fri, 25 Nov 94 Volume 94 : Issue 328 Today's Topics: Cryonics ?= extropianism & nature != perfect [1 msgs] Darwin stickers [2 msgs] ENVIRONMENT: Is the Sun "exploding"? Was: Nature's real plan [1 msgs] GENE: Resurrecting the dodo? [2 msgs] Holiday Optimism [2 msgs] Industrial Revolution Economics [2 msgs] MEME: Millennial Fever, Transhumanism as a Meme [2 msgs] Administrivia: Note: I have increased the frequency of the digests to four times a day. The digests used to be processed at 5am and 5pm, but this was too infrequent for the current bandwidth. Now digests are sent every six hours: Midnight, 6am, 12pm, and 6pm. If you experience delays in getting digests, try setting your digest size smaller such as 20k. You can do this by addressing a message to extropians@extropy.org with the body of the message as ::digest size 20 -Ray Approximate Size: 27714 bytes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tburns@mason1.gmu.edu (T. David Burns) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 1994 11:13:42 -1000 Subject: [#94-11-369] Industrial Revolution Economics At 3:10 AM 11/24/94, James Baker wrote: >economists >missed the fact as it was happening around them. Even good ones, Adam Smith >comes to mind. > >Similarly even now B-school simulations don't have a winning outcome based >on positive-sum outcomes. There has been a lot of activity in growth theory in the past few decades. If B-school hasn't picked up on it, that's their problem. (I'm not saying it's good work, but at least it's there. Economists may miss a lot, but they know the economy is not zero-sum.) Dave tburns@mason1.gmu.edu ------------------------------ From: tburns@mason1.gmu.edu (T. David Burns) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 1994 11:40:29 -1000 Subject: [#94-11-370] MEME: Millennial Fever, Transhumanism as a Meme At 9:37 AM 11/24/94, Anders Sandberg wrote: >both good news and bad news for transhumanism. >Religoid memes have shown themselves to be *extremely* successful. Is it the success of the meme or the success of *us* that matters? Is transhumanism's success defined by how many persons believe some variant of it or how much influence the persons who believe have? Where would you rather go, a place where everyone belives some water-down version or a place where lots of powerful people believe the hard core? (I'm actually somewhat surprised by what I'm saying. Maybe I've become too narrow in my thinking. After all, elitism could lead to the mob at the castle gate scenario.) Dave tburns@mason1.gmu.edu ------------------------------ From: jamie@netcom.com (Jamie Dinkelacker) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 1994 14:08:17 -0800 Subject: [#94-11-371] Holiday Optimism Extros, Of the many things for which I am thankful, my follow Extropians -- those known and those unkown to me -- are high on the list. BEST DO IT SO! *Jamie ______________________________________________________________________ Jamie Dinkelacker | PO 60310 Palo Alto CA 94306 | 415-961-9947 "Don't let the sound of your own wheels drive you crazy." - The Eagles ------------------------------ From: "Phil G. Fraering" Date: Thu, 24 Nov 1994 18:51:32 -0500 Subject: [#94-11-372] GENE: Resurrecting the dodo? I agree with Jay about more recent species being better candidates for "resurrection" than really extinct species. Even before I read the messages from him and Gregory Sullivan, I intended to post the following suggestion: we should start with the asiatic cheetah and lion; they are both very close to extinction, with the former cur- rently living in the wild only in scattered mountainous regions of Iran. Perhaps we should start making "backups" of the genetic code of each individual animal for which this is possible, in case the (now disputed) claims of lack of sufficient genetic diversity turn out to be substantiated. The "whole species backup" I am proposing is similar to Gregory (damn, there goes the justification ;-) Benford's biosphere backup, but is meant to provide a much larger spectrum of information about individual species. After reading the description of the state of the tiger population in Elizabeth Marshall Thomas' _The Tribe of Tiger: Cats and Their Culture_, I think it might be a good thing to do with the tiger population as well, with the caveat that we should wait for the tiger population to die off completely before attempting resurrections; if the quite substantial combined zoo, circus, and (hopefully soon someone will start doing this) Western Hemisphere wildlife preserve tiger populations are somehow destroyed by the "trade" in tiger bones, I think we should wait several human generations before bringing the (oops!) them back to life. In the off chance that there is a genetic basis for any real or imagined need to ingest ground-up tiger bone in order to copulate or procreate, I think it would be a marvellous opportunity to cleanse such genes from the human gene pool. BTW, I did finally remember the correct name of the author; the book _The Tribe of Tiger: Cats and Their Culture_ is excellent, and I recommend it to everyone here with an interest in cats large and small. (ack, I wish I could edit that sentence... oh well, I guess it's just another consequence of using bsd mail...) Phil Fraering pgf@srl03.cacs.usl.edu pgf2@delphi.com (not preferred, but a good backup address) ------------------------------ From: "Phil G. Fraering" Date: Thu, 24 Nov 1994 21:44:07 -0500 Subject: [#94-11-373] Cryonics ?= extropianism & nature != perfect Well, I'd like to point out to the first extropian squirrel that although I plan to do something more in depth on the environment thing shortly, for now I'd simply like to point out that I agree with his point about advanced tech and wish that the US government had agreed too during the Exxon Valdez cleanup; rather than go with heavy use of bioremediation, it was tested only along a couple-hundred-foot length of coast; the official mandated method mainly used in the cleanup was ye olde victorian technology steam cleaner. Biological remediation was not only not allowed, but the steam cleaning actually might have kept natural bioremediation from performing as it would have... I find it oddly enlightening that the government micromanaged large parts of the cleanup but ended up with no liability in the catastrophe. If Exxon was going to have to pay everything, they should have at least been allowed to run the damage control by themselves and not have the government screw it up. Phil Fraering pgf@srl03.cacs.usl.edu ------------------------------ From: "Peter C. McCluskey" Date: Thu, 24 Nov 1994 21:37:41 -0800 Subject: [#94-11-374] Industrial Revolution Economics nzr20@amdahlcsdc.com (Nicholas Russon) writes in X-Message-Number: #94-11-360: >> I wonder how history would have changed if one of those rich people had >> seen the future, and single-handedly financed the industrial revolution? > >You can bet it would have happened quite differently...from the point-of-view >of the lucky/wise/crafty rich person! I suggest that one of the reasons it How many billionaires would have their lives noticeably changed by an extra 2 or 3 billion? I think the main reason they don't finance radically new ventures is they don't need to. Most billionaires get where they are because have some very productive skills which they enjoy using, and continue doing roughly the same thing long after money stops motivating them. Maybe if Bill Gates wants to upload soon, he will finance it for nonmonetary reasons. >didn't happen was that these super-rich folks were generally unable to >realize the cash value of their holdings in anything like the relative >liquidity of today's marketplace...and just think of what kind of loss >Mr. Wm. Gates might have to accept to cash out all of his current holdings >in order to finance Nanotech firms in this way. > >"...crisis on Wall Street...President appeals for calm...London stocks >crash on news of huge sell-off of Microsoft stock by Bill Gates...Hong Kong That would happen if he put in a sudden order to sell everything without explaining his reasons. But trying to put a few $billion into a new technology all at once would produce government-sized waste. If he sold over several years and convinced people he was motivated by something other than doubts about Microsoft, I estimate he would depress the price by only 5 or 10%. -- --------------------------------------------------------------- Peter McCluskey | pcm@rahul.net | vivivi - the editor finger for PGP key | pcm@world.std.com | of the beast! ------------------------------ From: kwatson@netcom.com (Kennita Watson) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 1994 21:58:12 -0800 Subject: [#94-11-375] Holiday Optimism >Jamie Dinkelacker | PO 60310 Palo Alto CA 94306 | 415-961-9947 Incidentally -- Jim Stevenson (415-604-5720), blind Extropian, says you told him about a board for the Mac that would allow him to run PC software that would let his computer talk to him. I didn't want to give your info to him; please give him a call if you are so inclined (he didn't leave his email address on my voicemail) -- his number takes msgs, and he may be in LA at the moment. Hope you had a great day, Kennita Kennita Watson | The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, kwatson@netcom.com| but of respect and joy in each other's life. Rarely do | members of the same family grow up under the same roof. | -- Richard Bach, _Illusions_ ------------------------------ From: freeman@netcom.com (Jay Reynolds Freeman) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 1994 23:34:25 -0800 Subject: [#94-11-376] GENE: Resurrecting the dodo? I suspect that the technology to do an "analog backup" of the DNA of species now extant does in fact exist, perhaps by nothing fancier than freezing selected tissue samples from living or recently deceased animals. I am not sure whether anyone is doing so. Possibly not much more than an egg and sperm bank would be required. Presumably one would do digital backups as soon as one had acquired the requisite technology, using DNA samples from the frozen tissue if the species in question had gone extinct in the interim. I think I know that frozen sperm are viable after thawing after long times. Am I correct? Does anyone know about ova? -- Jay Freeman ------------------------------ From: price@price.demon.co.uk (Michael Clive Price) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 1994 21:10:22 GMT Subject: [#94-11-377] ENVIRONMENT: Is the Sun "exploding"? Was: Nature's real plan My thanks to Steven Webb for his informative response about main- sequence stars. There's one thing I didn't follow, though: > Note, for example, that extreme population II stars do not fall > along the main sequence because a) they were formed in an epoch > when the universe was poorer in heavy elements than it is now, > and b) they are far older than population I stars and therefore ^^^^^^^^^ > have unusally high luminosities given their masses. ^^^^ I don't see how the "therefore" matches up with the "high". If the pop- II stars have been burning for ages, wouldn't we expect them to be "slow-burners", and therefore rather dim. Or is it that they are now rich in heavier fusion products, because they are so old, which is catalysing further fusion? Michael Price price@price.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ From: agraps@netcom.com (Amara Graps) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 1994 23:45:40 -0800 Subject: [#94-11-378] Darwin stickers [about the Darwin stickers] >Can anyone tell me who makes these? I'd like to buy a bunch of them, >but not for $7.95 apiece. I remember posting information on the extropians list on how to get these, but that was almost 2 years ago, and they've moved from Hollywood, CA to Austin, TX, so here is the info again: Evolution Design P.O. Box 26336 Austin, Texas 78755 1-800-269-9986 1-512-338-0423 FAX They have mugs, t-shirts, refridgerator magnets, lapel pins now too. Price for the car stickers are $4.95 each. Amara P.S. I recently had an executive in a BMW follow me for about 5 miles from where he saw me to where I parked in a parking lot for an appointment. I thought that my good looks, charm, and powerful intellect were what attracted him, but alas, all he was interesting in was my Darwin sticker. ********************************************************************** Amara Graps email: agraps@netcom.com Computational Physicist vita: finger graps@clio.arc.nasa.gov Intergalactic Reality bio: finger -lm agraps@netcom.com ********************************************************************** "I like reality. It tastes of bread." --Jean Anouilh ------------------------------ From: freeman@netcom.com (Jay Reynolds Freeman) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 1994 23:54:12 -0800 Subject: [#94-11-379] Darwin stickers Darwin stickers are popular among pagans, atheists, biologists, and now extropians, surely a classic instance of satire making strange bedfellows. I have had one on the back of my car for years. Experiences I ascribe to it include: (1) One instance of Christian fundamentalist literature stuffed under my windshield wiper -- attributed to the fish because no other car parked near mine had been similarly afflicted. (2) One instance of someone in a small pickup bearing a "Jesus Saves" bumper sticker driving a little past me in the adjacent lane, honking, and staring and pointing piously upward. (3) Two instances of scribbled notes left stuffed under my windshield wiper asking me to please call the number given and leave word of where to get one. I did. (4) One instance of a woman in a car following me into a gas station, waiting politely till I had completed the 'phone call I had stopped to make, then approaching and asking me where to get one. I told her. (I guess I possess less dynamic optimism than Amara -- I didn't for a moment suspect my looks, charm or intellect had anything to do with it.) (5) One instance of someone pulling up beside me in traffic, honking, waving, smiling broadly, and holding up for my inspection the Darwin Fish he had evidently just bought for himself. (6) I have mentioned that I have been taking some classes in marine biology at Moss Landing Marine Laboratory. During my first such, it took most of the semester before anyone figured out that the car with the Darwin Fish on it was mine. Then I was deluged with requests for where to get them. Now, MLML is quartered in Salinas until a new building gets built (the 1989 'quake took out the old one), and I live in Palo Alto, so I didn't know. So I offered to get them from places local to me in the Bay Area, and resell them at cost, and I have put about 40 into the Moss Landing lab community, which numbers only about 200 altogether. I have even sold one to Tim May. Do I get extra extropian points for that? -- Jay Freeman First Extropian Darwin Fish Pusher PS: There's a cartoon of a Darwin Fish swallowing a Jesus Fish. The caption is "Evolution in Action". ------------------------------ From: Anders Sandberg Date: Fri, 25 Nov 1994 10:32:02 +0100 (MET) Subject: [#94-11-380] MEME: Millennial Fever, Transhumanism as a Meme Nancy Lebovitz wrote: >Leary's SMI2LE scenario (Space Migration, Increased Intelligence, >Life Extension) maps very neatly on to the Catholic meme of >going to heaven, being transfigured, and living forever. (I think >the idea is RAWilson's.) Its a classic human thought, older than the Egyptians. You can probably find variants of it in every culture or ideological system. To quote the Church of Jesus Christ Computer Programmer from Paranoia: "Verily, on the final day, then the believers will be debugged, upgraded and uploaded into the Eternal Mainframe, but those who do not believe will be downloaded into the Peripherals of Damnation." >The idea of a variant transhumanism for women makes my stomach >hurt--but it might sound less patronizing if you leave >open the possibility that, if more women get involved in transhumanism, >they might add useful ideas by focusing on different aspects of the >concept. Yes, creating an "alternative transhumanism" might not be the best way or the best terminology for this. Perhaps a better way to deal with this is to admit that different groups like different parts of transhumanism, and concentrate on "selling" the parts they might like to them. After all, I doubt everyone on this list have the same views on what is possible and desirable, but all the "belief vectors" point in roughly the same direction. My proposal is to spread "belief vectors" farther from the mean. Besides, we *need* other views to spread our memes. We need transhumanistic artists, who can spread the vision. We need people who point out all those pesky practical details we all gloss over. >If you're right about women preferring nearer-term aspects >of transhumanism....well, the nearer-term parts need work, too. Personally I think we transhumanists have dealt too much with the really far out stuff and too little with the more near-term things (this is natural from a memetic standpoint, since we humans tend to focus on things with huge pay-offs, regardless of their probability or distance). We must find a road from Here to There, and that involves a lot of short- and middle-term problems. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Anders Sandberg Towards Ascension! nv91-asa@hemul.nada.kth.se http://www.nada.kth.se/~nv91-asa/main.html GCS/M/S/O d++ -p+ c++++ !l u+ e++ m++ s+/+ n--- h+/* f+ g+ w++ t+ r+ !y ------------------------------ End of Extropians Digest V94 #328 *********************************