From extropians-request@extropy.org Fri Sep 9 03:02:59 1994 Return-Path: extropians-request@extropy.org Received: from usc.edu (usc.edu [128.125.253.136]) by chaph.usc.edu (8.6.8.1/8.6.4) with SMTP id DAA25947 for ; Fri, 9 Sep 1994 03:02:58 -0700 Received: from news.panix.com by usc.edu (4.1/SMI-3.0DEV3-USC+3.1) id AA29124; Fri, 9 Sep 94 03:02:54 PDT Received: by news.panix.com id AA29460 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for more@usc.edu); Fri, 9 Sep 1994 06:02:46 -0400 Date: Fri, 9 Sep 1994 06:02:46 -0400 Message-Id: <199409091002.AA29460@news.panix.com> To: Extropians@extropy.org From: Extropians@extropy.org Subject: Extropians Digest #94-9-63 - #94-9-74 X-Extropian-Date: September 9, 374 P.N.O. [06:01:18 UTC] Reply-To: extropians@extropy.org X-Mailer: MailWeir 1.0 Status: RO Extropians Digest Fri, 9 Sep 94 Volume 94 : Issue 251 Today's Topics: [1 msgs] Good Forfeiture Decision (fwd) -- Light at End of Tunnel? [1 msgs] Linda Thompson's Tactics [1 msgs] POL: You say you want a revolution; well, you know... [1 msgs] SCI: SL9 CD-ROM [1 msgs] URL: call for Extropian personal WWW home pages [4 msgs] URL: call for Extropian personal WWW home pages [1 msgs] URL: Truly *awesome* URL! [1 msgs] Administrivia: Note: I have increased the frequency of the digests to four times a day. The digests used to be processed at 5am and 5pm, but this was too infrequent for the current bandwidth. Now digests are sent every six hours: Midnight, 6am, 12pm, and 6pm. If you experience delays in getting digests, try setting your digest size smaller such as 20k. You can do this by addressing a message to extropians@extropy.org with the body of the message as ::digest size 20 -Ray Approximate Size: 31014 bytes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dkrieger@netcom.com (Dave Krieger) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 1994 13:14:15 -0700 Subject: [#94-9-63] POL: You say you want a revolution; well, you know... At 9:20 PM 9/7/94 -0400, Randy Mace wrote: >As a side note, would you like to discuss, debate, etc., my opinion that >if the political process does not work, we will instead see the >Quebecois-zation of the US into probably three separate entities >(countries), two coastal and urban and one inland and rural? If such >movement becomes widely considered, will those inside the beltway or on >the coasts be likely to force the union to stay together? > [...] >Randall H. Mace >aa160@seorf.ohiou.edu >74467.2403@compuserve.com For one author's rigorous examination of where regional cohesion "naturally" draws the lines of secession, see Joel Garreau's "The Nine Nations of North America"... Garreau was a Washington Post editor who spent two years touring the continent, and ended up drawing a map of a plausible redivision of the U.S., Canada, and Mexico in terms of similarity of climate and resources, ethnic background, geography, etc. Even if you don't agree with all of Garreau's conclusions, it makes a fascinating read and an excellent travelogue (circa 1983 or so). I'm ::nosending to the list a proposed ballot initiative authored in part by J. Neal Schulman (author of _The Rainbow Cadenza_, _Alongside Night_, and other libertarian classics) for secession from the Union. Does anyone on the list know much about the signature-gathering process for ballot initatives in general, and California in particular? I know already that you're pretty much dead in the water without the paid assistance of a specialized petition-circulating company, but couldn't find any in the Yellow Pages. dV/dt "Enough is never enough, and even more is usually inadequate." -- Dr. Hunter S. Thompson ------------------------------ From: dkrieger@netcom.com (Dave Krieger) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 1994 14:16:49 -0700 Subject: [#94-9-64] help nosend ------------------------------ From: whitaker@extropia.corp.sgi.com (Russell Whitaker) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 1994 19:42:36 -0700 Subject: [#94-9-65] URL: Truly *awesome* URL! This is a _must-have_ for extropian websters: Rob Berry's List Of Links http://www.mps.ohio-state.edu/cgi-bin/hpp?RAB_links.html Even I was bowled over by the encyclopedic scope of this URL. It's delightful! -- Russell Earl Whitaker whitaker@extropia.corp.sgi.com I.S. Assistance Center 415-390-3826 Silicon Graphics, Inc. Mountain View, CA. ================================================================ 1.] If you are behind SGI's firewall, here's my WWW home page: http://extropia.corp.sgi.com:8001/people/whitaker.html 2.] Outside the SGI firewall, try this one: http://www.mps.ohio-state.edu/cgi-bin/hpp?whitaker.html 3.] My Netcom and C2 WWW pages are also under construction! Stay tuned for the *Extropy* magazine archives... ------------------------------ From: whitaker@extropia.corp.sgi.com (Russell Whitaker) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 1994 22:11:24 -0700 Subject: [#94-9-67] URL: call for Extropian personal WWW home pages 2215 8 Sep 94 Distribute freely, with no abridgement... OK, I've just built the first of a large number of interesting WWW pages... Internet browsing for the Extropian Who Wants Everything. Have a look around: http://www.mps.ohio-state.edu/cgi-bin/hpp?whitaker.html I'm trying to distinguish myself immediately by 2 methods: 1.) Building a section on interesting people. People are interesting to me, and Extropian people are *really* interesting. To this end, I'm soliciting the URLs of extropians here and elsewhere. I'm also interested in fellow travellers: libertarians, cryptoanarchists, "open system" objectivists, and other future-cool freedom lovers. 2.) By announcing the first, official archives of Extropy: The Journal of Transhumanist Thought! Within the next 2-3 weeks, I will be migrating archives of every issue of Extropy (excepting the latest, always... we are trying to make _money_, too...) to the Web. Wired magazine's experiment seems to be a wonderful success so far. However so humble, hypertext is here now... let's build the world we've been wanting. -- Russell Earl Whitaker whitaker@extropia.corp.sgi.com I.S. Assistance Center 415-390-3826 Silicon Graphics, Inc. Mountain View, CA. ================================================================ 1.] If you are behind SGI's firewall, here's my WWW home page: http://extropia.corp.sgi.com:8001/people/whitaker.html 2.] Outside the SGI firewall, try this one: http://www.mps.ohio-state.edu/cgi-bin/hpp?whitaker.html 3.] My Netcom and C2 WWW pages are also under construction! Stay tuned for the *Extropy* magazine archives... ------------------------------ From: minsky@media.mit.edu (Marvin Minsky) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 94 01:46:37 -0400 Subject: [#94-9-68] URL: call for Extropian personal WWW home pages Here's mine: http://www.ai.mit.edu/people/minsky/minsky.html ------------------------------ From: Eric Watt Forste Date: Thu, 08 Sep 94 22:55:41 -0700 Subject: [#94-9-69] URL: call for Extropian personal WWW home pages Russell, If you look at http://www.c2.org/~arkuat/indiv.html You will find my own current list of compiled extropian personal home pages, plus a motley assortment of fellow-travellers and not-so-fellow-travellers. For starters, there's Mike Linksvayer and Mark Grant, plus others that you've already linked to from your page. Keep up the good work! The more the merrier. Eric Watt Forste || finger arkuat@c2.org || http://www.c2.org/~arkuat ------------------------------ From: whitaker@extropia.corp.sgi.com (Russell Whitaker) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 1994 23:09:19 -0700 Subject: [#94-9-70] URL: call for Extropian personal WWW home pages On Sep 8, 10:55pm, Eric Watt Forste wrote: > Subject: URL: call for Extropian personal WWW home pages [Text elided for brevity] > Keep up the good work! The more the merrier. > > Eric Watt Forste || finger arkuat@c2.org || http://www.c2.org/~arkuat >-- End of excerpt from Eric Watt Forste Thanks, Eric; I'll add it now. I have proposed to Harry a new list for extropian web development issues: exi-web. It's not yet enabled; I'll write the list charter soon. -- Russell Earl Whitaker whitaker@extropia.corp.sgi.com I.S. Assistance Center 415-390-3826 Silicon Graphics, Inc. Mountain View, CA. ================================================================ 1.] If you are behind SGI's firewall, here's my WWW home page: http://extropia.corp.sgi.com:8001/people/whitaker.html 2.] Outside the SGI firewall, try this one: http://www.mps.ohio-state.edu/cgi-bin/hpp?whitaker.html 3.] My Netcom and C2 WWW pages are also under construction! Stay tuned for the *Extropy* magazine archives... ------------------------------ From: whitaker@extropia.corp.sgi.com (Russell Whitaker) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 1994 23:14:57 -0700 Subject: [#94-9-71] URL: call for Extropian personal WWW home pages On Sep 9, 1:46am, Marvin Minsky wrote: > Subject: URL: call for Extropian personal WWW home pages > Here's mine: > > http://www.ai.mit.edu/people/minsky/minsky.html > >-- End of excerpt from Marvin Minsky Multitasking is fun: I had traversed to "Arkuat's Picks" to see Marvin's page when Marvin's message arrived here. -- Russell Earl Whitaker whitaker@extropia.corp.sgi.com I.S. Assistance Center 415-390-3826 Silicon Graphics, Inc. Mountain View, CA. ================================================================ 1.] If you are behind SGI's firewall, here's my WWW home page: http://extropia.corp.sgi.com:8001/people/whitaker.html 2.] Outside the SGI firewall, try this one: http://www.mps.ohio-state.edu/cgi-bin/hpp?whitaker.html 3.] My Netcom and C2 WWW pages are also under construction! Stay tuned for the *Extropy* magazine archives... ------------------------------ From: timstarr@netcom.com (Tim Starr) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 1994 23:34:07 -0700 Subject: [#94-9-72] Linda Thompson's Tactics >From: Randy Mace > >...Clinton, et al, certainly seem to have forgotten Mao Tse Tung's quotation >that "power emenates from the barrel of a gun" (my apologies if that is >not absolutely accurately quoted) and fail to notice that their policies end >up concentrating power in the hands of the government and the criminals. What makes you think they're unaware of this? >> Apparently, this fad was started by an call by one Linda Thompson, an >> investigator the WACO mess, who called for an armed march on Washington >> to arrest the traitors in office. > >More to agree about. According to what I've read, she is suspected of >faking video footage of the Waco incident whereby it appeared the tanks >were shooting flames into the building. When that became discredited, she >changed her story, saying she observed black-suited men setting the fire >outside the compound and the tanks were poking holes in the building to >assure fire-spreading ventilation. As far as I can tell, the legitimate >Second Amendment groups want nothing to do with her and her antics. Some of her tactics are questionable, but this is inaccurate. I've seen the video footage in question. If anything, the footage Soldier of Fortune magazine came out with looks more faked than hers, but it's simply unclear whether the image is of a dragon tank or something else. Whatever it is, it sure _looks_ like a dragon tank, but L. Neil Schulman claims to have done a video analysis of it and says it's an optical illusion. However, the black-suits messing around the compound and setting off explosives of some kind are much clearer. If they didn't use dragon tanks, they might as well have considering the rest of the stuff they used, such as CS gas and helicopters armed with mounted machine guns. >> In my book, Linda Thompson is suspect as an agent provacateur. > >I and a lot of other serious pro-Second Amendment folks agree. Yah, with far worse evidence than she has for her dragon tanks. At least she has what could be an optical illusion to bolster her case. I'm not aware of anything to support the claim that she's an agent provacateur. It seems far more likely to me that she's just the sort of person who's so locked into the right-wing mindset that she leaps to violent tactical proposals without adequate justification. She's far from the only one who suffers from this. I know another guy who thinks "we" can win a short violent conflict with the Feds if we plan our sabotage right. James Daugherty got it right: the battle of ideas is where it's at right now and for the forseeable future. While it makes just as much sense to be prepared for domestic tyranny as it does for natural disasters, we need to focus on ideological conflict. >...As a side note, would you like to discuss, debate, etc., my opinion that >if the political process does not work, we will instead see the >Quebecois-zation of the US into probably three separate entities >(countries), two coastal and urban and one inland and rural? If such >movement becomes widely considered, will those inside the beltway or on >the coasts be likely to force the union to stay together? The separation I've been considering lately is that the chunk of western States including Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, Utah, Colorado, Nevada, Arizona, and New Mexico will break out of the control of the national government. Could they do it? If they did, could they take California, Oregon, Washington, and Texas with 'em? The Montana Shooting Sports Association is planning on putting a declaration of independence from the Feds on the ballot next year. Tim Starr - Renaissance Now! Think Universally, Act Selfishly Assistant Editor: Freedom Network News, the newsletter of ISIL, The International Society for Individual Liberty, 1800 Market St., San Francisco, CA 94102 (415) 864-0952; FAX: (415) 864-7506; 71034.2711@compuserve.com Liberty is the Best Policy - timstarr@netcom.com ------------------------------ From: agraps@netcom.com (Amara Graps) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 1994 00:39:10 -0700 Subject: [#94-9-73] SCI: SL9 CD-ROM Hi Extro-Folks: Have fun with this one... Amara agraps@netcom.com -------------------cut here----------------------------------- Network Cybernetics Corporation has completed the first CD-ROM on the Shoemaker-Levy 9 / Jupiter collision. The disc is an ISO-9660 format CD-ROM and contains files collected from observatories and other sources around the world. Included are more than 170 megabytes of still images and 45 megabytes of motion video. Also includes hundreds of text and Post Script files related to the impact. Shareware viewing programs are included for OS/2, DOS, Macintosh platforms. Image and video formats include GIF, TIFF, JPEG, EPS, FITS, MPEG, FLI/FLC, and others. SL9: Impact '94 has a list price of $39.00. We are offering a special price of $29.00 to sci.astro and sci.space readers for all orders received before October 31, 1994. For more information, a complete press release and ordering information may be obtained by sending email to: SL9-INFO@ncc.com. --------------------------------------- ----------------------------------- | Internet srainwater@ncc.com || Network Cybernetics Corporation | | Fidonet Steve Rainwater@1:124/2206 || Tel 214-650-2002 BBS 214-258-1832 | | Compuserve 72066,3606 || Fax 214-650-1929 | --------------------------------------- ----------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: James Daugherty Date: Fri, 9 Sep 1994 04:15:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [#94-9-74] Good Forfeiture Decision (fwd) -- Light at End of Tunnel? ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 8 Sep 94 22:17:00 UTC From:j.paff1@genie.geis.com To: libernet@Dartmouth.EDU Subject: Good Forfeiture Decision NINTH CIRCUIT RULES DOUBLE JEOPARDY CLAUSE PROHIBITS CIVIL FORFEITURE SUBSEQUENT TO CRIMINAL PROSECUTION For Immediate Release: For more information contact: Brenda Grantland, President Forfeiture Endangers American Rights, Inc. 265 Miller Avenue Mill Valley, CA 94941 Internet: b.grantland@genie.geis.com On September 6, 1994, the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit extended the Supreme Court's ruling in Austin v. United States, 113 S.Ct. 2801 (1993) a substantial step further toward guaranteeing civil forfeiture victims the same Due Process given criminal defendants. The Ninth Circuit ruled that the Double Jeopardy Clause applies to civil forfeiture, since the Supreme Court said in Austin that civil forfeiture is punishment, The Ninth Circuit case, United States v. $405,089.23, 94 C.D.O.S. 6837 (Sept. 6, 1994), involved parallel criminal and civil forfeiture proceedings against Charles Arlt, James Wren, and Payback Mines, charging drug conspiracy and money laundering. "Through a series of front corporations, including Payback Mines, the defendants had sought to create the appearance that they were engaging in legitimate gold mining activities," the court said. Id. Five days after Arlt and Wren were indicted, the government seized their bank accounts, cash, 138 silver bars, a helicopter, a shrimp boat, and airplane, eleven automobiles and a boat. It filed a separate civil forfeiture case against the property, alleging that the property was either proceeds of crime, or "involved in" money laundering. The parties agreed to a stay of the civil forfeiture proceedings pending the outcome of the criminal prosecution -- a common practice when parallel civil forfeiture and criminal proceedings are pending at the same time. After the defendants were convicted, the government filed a motion for summary judgment in the civil forfeiture case, relying on the criminal convictions of the defendants, and a declaration of an IRS agent. The district court granted summary judgment for the government. In finding that the Double Jeopardy clause prohibits civil forfeiture after the convictions, the Ninth Circuit held: "The government's actions in this case raise substantial double jeopardy concerns. However, to determine whether these actions violate the Fifth Amendment, we must consider two questions: whether the civil forfeiture action and the claimants' criminal prosecution constituted separate "proceedings," and whether civil forfeiture under 21 U.S.C. Section 881(a)(6) and 18 U.S.C. Sec. 981(a)(1)(A) constitutes "punishment." If the answer to both of these questions is yes, then the government's actions constituted a successive attempt to impose punishment, in violation of the Double Jeopardy Clause." 94 C.D.O.S. 6838. The court concluded that the civil forfeiture proceeding was clearly a separate proceeding, since one was civil and the other criminal, there were assigned to different judges, and resolved by separate judgments. In doing so, the Ninth Circuit expressly rejected contrary holdings from the Second and Eleventh Circuits, saying "we believe that the position adopted by the Second and Eleventh Circuits contradicts controlling Supreme Court precedent as well as common sense." 94 C.D.O.S. 6838. It also cited a Supreme Court case, Jeffers v. United States, 423 U.S. 137 (1977), holding that "parallel actions, instituted at about the same time and involving the same criminal conduct, constitute separate proceedings for double jeopardy purposes." Id. The Ninth Circuit had little difficulty finding that civil forfeiture is punishment. It pointed out that the U.S. Supreme Court decided in Austin that civil forfeiture is punishment. Thus, the Ninth Circuit concluded, the 1984 Supreme Court case of United States v. One Assortment of 89 Firearms, 465 U.S. 354 (1984), which held that the Double Jeopardy Clause did not apply to civil forfeitures, is no longer controlling. 89 Firearms relied upon the assumption that civil forfeiture is not punishment because Congress intended it to be a civil sanction. That reasoning has been undermined and virtually overruled by Austin and United States v. Halper, 490 U.S. 435 (1989). "However, as sometimes happens, the [Supreme] Court changed its collective mind," 94 C.D.O.S. 6839, the court said, quoting Halper: "'[A] civil sanction that cannot fairly be said solely to serve a remedial purpose, bur rather can only be explained as also serving either retributive or deterrent purposes, is punishment, as we have come to understand the term.' Id. at 448. Just last year it reaffirmed its new-found wisdom, emphasizing again that a sanction which is designed even in part to deter or punish will constitute punishment, regardless of whether it also has a remedial purpose. See Austin v. United States, 113 S.Ct. 2801, 2806, 2812 (1993)...." Id. This case will bring to a halt the common practice of prosecutors proceeding against criminal defendants' property in separate civil forfeiture proceedings simultaneously with the criminal prosecution. It will not bar forfeiture altogether, but will make the prosecutor choose between joining the property as separate criminal forfeiture counts in the criminal indictment, or going forward with the civil forfeiture case and foregoing a criminal prosecution, the Ninth Circuit said. Id. at 6841. It seems that this ruling will also apply to bar civil forfeiture proceedings after an acquittal in a parallel criminal prosecution -- the situation which the Supreme Court upheld in 89 Firearms. The Ninth Circuit stated, in dicta, that "[t]he most basic element of the Double Jeopardy Clause is the protection it affords against successive prosecutions -- that is, against efforts to impose punishment for the same offense in two or more separate proceedings. That protection applies with equal force whether the first prosecution results in a conviction or an acquittal." 94 C.D.O.S. 6837. This ruling is not the first holding that double jeopardy prevents successive civil forfeitures and criminal punishments for the same offense. Texas' 14th Court of Appeals, in Fant v. Texas, A14-94-00013 (July 21, 1994) ruled that a criminal prosecution after a civil forfeiture verdict is barred by double jeopardy . The Supreme Court of Washington held that the double jeopardy clause applies to civil forfeiture in State of Washington v. Clark, (#60331-6, en banc, June 9, 1994.) FEAR's new state coordinator for Washington state defended the Clark case, and a subsequent district court victory on the same issue. Contact Jeffrey Steinborn for further details at 206-622-5117. Pending in the U.S. Supreme Court is yet another forfeiture case -- United States v. Tilley, from the Fifth Circuit. (Citation below: 18 F.3d 295) which will probably resolve these issues for good. If our track record holds up, this will be the sixth consecutive victory in the Supreme Court for forfeiture reform. It may also decide the fundamental question of whether civil forfeiture is constitutional at all -- leaving the government with only the criminal forfeiture process. So who were the brilliant forfeiture defense lawyers who achieved this wonderful result in the $405,089.23 case? Charles Wesley Arlt, and James Eli Wren, FCI Lompoc -- the criminal defendants -- represented themselves. =End \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\*///////////////////////////////////// James Daugherty, volunteer Postmaster for A-albionic Research (POB 20273, Ferndale, MI 48220), a ruling class/conspiracy research resource for the entire political-ideological spectrum. Quarterly Journal, book sales, rare/out-of-print searches, & networking since 1984. New Paradigms Gopher and FTP Site loaded with unique files and book catalogs. For introductory info on Weekly Up-date, Discussion List, free articles, & & free book catalogs e-mail to: majordomo@mail.msen.com message in body: info prj (subject doesn't matter) New Paradigms Project Gopher: gopher.a-albionic.com 9006 New Paradigms Project Ftp Site: ftp.a-albionic.com ------------------------------ End of Extropians Digest V94 #251 *********************************