From extropians-request@extropy.org Thu Sep 1 09:08:14 1994 Return-Path: extropians-request@extropy.org Received: from usc.edu (usc.edu [128.125.253.136]) by chaph.usc.edu (8.6.8.1/8.6.4) with SMTP id JAA20507 for ; Thu, 1 Sep 1994 09:08:12 -0700 Received: from news.panix.com by usc.edu (4.1/SMI-3.0DEV3-USC+3.1) id AA18471; Thu, 1 Sep 94 09:07:11 PDT Received: by news.panix.com id AA23112 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for more@usc.edu); Thu, 1 Sep 1994 12:05:53 -0400 Date: Thu, 1 Sep 1994 12:05:53 -0400 Message-Id: <199409011605.AA23112@news.panix.com> To: Extropians@extropy.org From: Extropians@extropy.org Subject: Extropians Digest #94-8-315 - #94-8-324 X-Extropian-Date: September 1, 374 P.N.O. [12:00:39 UTC] Reply-To: extropians@extropy.org X-Mailer: MailWeir 1.0 Status: RO Extropians Digest Thu, 1 Sep 94 Volume 94 : Issue 243 Today's Topics: Conspiracy [1 msgs] Conspiracy! (fwd) [1 msgs] FAQ: We need questions, not answers! [1 msgs] Hello? [1 msgs] MEDIA: WIRED 2.10 Preview [1 msgs] question for FAQ [2 msgs] The Militia (fwd) [1 msgs] Water Filter: query [1 msgs] Water Filter: query, answers [1 msgs] Administrivia: Note: I have increased the frequency of the digests to four times a day. The digests used to be processed at 5am and 5pm, but this was too infrequent for the current bandwidth. Now digests are sent every six hours: Midnight, 6am, 12pm, and 6pm. If you experience delays in getting digests, try setting your digest size smaller such as 20k. You can do this by addressing a message to extropians@extropy.org with the body of the message as ::digest size 20 -Ray Approximate Size: 26431 bytes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Kuhfahl Date: Wed, 31 Aug 1994 08:13:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [#94-8-315] Water Filter: query, answers > > A sentient soul, Harry S. Hawk writes: > > > > a conscious being, Michelle Peel wrote: > > > the NSA 50C table top is nice, but be sure to buy it from a disillusioned > > > distributor dumping his stock. > > > These filters do not protect against germs/viral content, but use the > tried and true charcoal filter method (with pressure, I believe) that > gives a very nice reduction in non-H2O content. Even the taste of > chlorine is drastically decreased for this type of filter. (Those > who use 'Britta' filters will notice a considerable difference). We use britta and like it; are there cons to the filter? It seems to get rid of all the chlorine for us (at least for the first few weeks on anew filter :^}) I like the fact/claims that it gets rid of lead and other "non-healty" stuff. Are there better "tabletop" models? > Thanks Bob -- Bob Kuhfahl | EXTROPY -- A measure of intelligence, information, Systems Engineer | energy, vitality, experience, diversity, opportunity, Communications and | and growth. Networking | EXTROPIANISM -- The philosophy that seeks to increase b.kuhfahl@ieee.org | extropy. Working for a balanced life. ------------------------------ From: James Daugherty Date: Wed, 31 Aug 1994 08:36:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [#94-8-316] Conspiracy On Wed, 31 Aug 1994, Alec Cosic wrote: > >LaRouche is not all wrong regarding the British Empire. However, I > >disagree with almost everything else he advocates which is really > >warmed-over socialism. He like to call it dirigism. The left is not all > >wrong when they accuse him of fascism, though he is not anti-Semitic to > >my knowledge. > > > >Important to note though that LaRouche did not invent the British Empire > >angle. He used to think the Rockefellers as the heirs of the Standard > >Oil Trust were the center of the world power system. He picked-up the > >British Empire angle from such Georgetown Jesuit sources as Carroll > >Quigley who wrote Tragedy and Hope and the AngloAmerican Establishment. > >There is a long history of Anglophobe literature in the American Underground. > > > >Other sources are And Men Wept by Catherine Baldwin, The Union Jack by > >Helen Peters, and the Empire of the City: World Super State by Knuth. > >All these books were written long before LaRouche came on the scene. > > > > > >On Wed, 31 Aug 1994, Daniel Lam wrote: > > > >> James.Daugherty. > >> > What you need to look into was the existence of the British Empire up > >> > until approx WWII. This entity was controlled and co-ordinatied by such > >> > institutions as the British East India Company and the Bank of England, > >> > and behind that, a centuries-old Oligarchy of powerful Noble Families > >> > including the Royal Family. > >> > > >> > The credible ruling class/conspiracy theories claim that the current > >> > power structure or conspiracy descends from this entity. > >> > >> Do I detect a whiff of LaRouche here? > >> > >> Here in Australia it is quite fun to watch outfits like the League of > >> Rights (your usual racist, anti-semitic, anti-immigration bunch, and > >> strongly monarchist and Anglophile) fight it out with their fellow > >> conspiracy theorists from the American LaRouchite side, who blame > >> everything on the British Empire. > >> > >> -- > >> Daniel Lam > >> Melbourne, Australia > >> > > > > > What stikes me is that LaRouche is strongly against the Serbs. He wrote un > article about Croatia, and it was sheer propaganda and lie. What I think is > that he is Vatican man, or their spokesman. What Vatican could not state > publicly, it will left over to LaRouche. Perhaps LaRouche is a covert Vatican project! Perhaps run via the Pope's Sovereign Military Order of the Knights of Malta. > > I could only be surprised with him and with for example senator Bob Dole, > who are great enimies of the Serbs. I do not see the logic that USA will be > influenced and lead by the people who are paid by Vatican. if it is obvious > to me, CIA should know it already. What they are doing now in USA, reminds > me what Tito did in Yugoslavia. It looks that they are conditioning USA to > have same fate as former Yugoslavia. They lead the state and behave in the > way that only the enimies of states could do. > > Well, you should study who is behind the Serbs also! They are, like it or not, serving British Geopolitical purposes! > To mentioned again I read files from ftp.netcom.com very old files about > conspiracy from a certian Dr. Beter (pub/nanonius). He stated that the > Rusians cristians (some secret christian sect) expelled at the begining of > the 70s all the bolsheviks and jews from the main states positions, which > infuriated the Roccefeller's who with Bolshevics oriented jews and masons > in USA staged a secret war against Russians christians who expelled them. > The Rockeffeller were to loose their grip of power, but they regained > recently firm grip on power. Rockeffeller was a protege of Rotschild, but > recently he is at least his peer. > Frankly, I wouldn't pay any attention at all to Dr. Beter. His good info he stole from Dr. Emmanuel Josephson. Much of it he just made up. > I find it very interesting > > A. Cosic > > \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\*///////////////////////////////////// James Daugherty, volunteer Postmaster for A-albionic Research (POB 20273, Ferndale, MI 48220), a ruling class/conspiracy research resource for the entire political-ideological spectrum. Quarterly Journal, book sales, rare/out-of-print searches, & networking since 1984. New Paradigms Gopher and FTP Site loaded with unique files and book catalogs. For introductory info on Weekly Up-date, Discussion List, free articles, & & free book catalogs e-mail to: majordomo@mail.msen.com message in body: info prj (subject doesn't matter) ------------------------------ From: EdRegis@aol.com Date: Wed, 31 Aug 94 11:51:59 EDT Subject: [#94-8-317] MEDIA: WIRED 2.10 Preview Harry Hawk writes: >I wonder how our name changing and handshakes will hold up? >Ed?? any comments... Actually I haven't seen the story as printed, but unless the editors have made major changes (which I don't expect) I think everyone will find the piece satisfactory. Ed edregis@aol.com ------------------------------ From: dkrieger@netcom.com (Dave Krieger) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 1994 09:58:53 -0700 Subject: [#94-8-318] FAQ: We need questions, not answers! Fellow 'tropes -- As you probably know, BATF volunteer extraordinaire Eric Watt Forste has been diligently compiling a Frequently Asked Questions archive for online purposes. I have been doing my part to help out by answering a question a day in my morning e-mail. This splendid arrangement has hit a snag, however; arkuat has run out of questions! If there's some topic on which you'd like me to sound off in a document that will present Extropianism to 10^3's of net denizens, send a question about it to arkuat@netcom.com. To help get you started, here's a few broad topics from an outline for an earlier version of the FAQ project (you'll note that 2, 3, 12, and 13 don't need questions because they take text from other sources): THE alt.extropians FREQUENTLY-ASKED QUESTIONS LIST PART ONE: Introduction to Extropianism PART TWO: The Extropian Principles PART THREE: The Extropian Reading List PART FOUR: Introduction to Nanotechnology PART FIVE: Introduction to Life Extension PART SIX: Introduction to Evolution PART SEVEN: Introduction to Econopolitics [incl. gun control] PART EIGHT: Introduction to Cryptography PART NINE: Introduction to Self-Transformation Technologies PART TEN: Extropian Epistemologies PART ELEVEN: Making Extropianism Personal PART TWELVE: _Extropy_ Magazine and Extropy Institute PART THIRTEEN: The Extropians Mailing List Thanks, folks! dV/dt "Enough is never enough, and even more is usually inadequate." -- Dr. Hunter S. Thompson ------------------------------ From: szabo@netcom.com (Nick Szabo) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 1994 12:31:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [#94-8-319] question for FAQ Here are some questions that were discussed at our last Assembler Multitude meeting, with some possible extropian answers (that need quite a bit of fleshing out, IMHO): * what are the medical ethics of enhancement vs. preventing or curing illnes? (possible short answer: extropians consider enhancement to be very important, and think the relative merits of these three categories depend on the specific cases, and it should be up to the individuals rather than society to judge) * is taking drugs to enhance one's motivation or intelligence more ethically equivalent to taking steroids or to getting a facelift? (short answer: more equivalent to getting an education. But this leads to the further question, should parents or teachers be able to force or strongly pursuade children to take smart drugs?) Nick Szabo szabo@netcom.com ------------------------------ From: vikbob@halcyon.com (Viktor Lawryniuk) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 1994 12:56:57 -0700 Subject: [#94-8-320] Water Filter: query I hope y'all don't mind me posting this to the list... >Does anyone have a really good water filter to recommend? > >/hawk > You betcha, Harry! One of my sidelines is distributing great stuff from Life Services Network. They carry the full line of Durk Pearson & Sandy Shaw specialty nutritional supplements for instance. They also carry water filters designed by Dr. Ann de Wees Allen, ND. $225 for the over-the-counter model/$235 for the under-the-counter one/$49.95 for the travel version and $49.95 for the shower model. To have one shipped direct to you, call 1-800-566-8872 and reference it to my ID# =1578. Register as a preferred customer and you will get 20% off this and future purchases. Viktor Lawryniuk P.S. I just read the post about the NSA. These models are way better: dual filtration with an Extruded Carbon Block (PB+) followed by an exclusive ULTRACARB Ceramic Candle with an absolute rating of 0.9 microns. Blah, blah, blah... P.P.S. Testing conducted by independent labs...show 97% reduction on lead, chlorine; 99.999% on E. Coli; 100% on Cryptosporidum Parvum; 100% on Giardia Lambia; 75% on Hydrogen Sulfide. FutureInk, Inc. (206) 654-0737 voice 935-1913 fax Communication for a new edge... vikbob@halcyon.com futureink@aol.com ------------------------------ From: "Phil G. Fraering" Date: Wed, 31 Aug 1994 18:38:36 -0500 Subject: [#94-8-321] Hello? I've suddenly stopped getting the list... any reason? Phil ------------------------------ From: Elizabeth Schwartz Date: Wed, 31 Aug 1994 20:15:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [#94-8-322] question for FAQ > * is taking drugs to enhance one's motivation or intelligence > more ethically equivalent to taking steroids or to getting > a facelift? > (short answer: more equivalent to getting an education. But > this leads to the further question, should parents or teachers > be able to force or strongly pursuade children to take smart > drugs?) If you want to put questions that don't have easy answers into the FAQ, some of these come up a lot: What obligations do parents have to educate their children? What obligations do children have to their parents? When can a child enter into contracts? Can a child be bought/sold/hired out/used as an organ donor? (what about a fetus? There seem to be two Extropian positions on that one) Do animals have rights? I believe in everything except XXX. Am I still an Extropian? ------------------------------ From: James Daugherty Date: Wed, 31 Aug 1994 20:35:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [#94-8-323] The Militia (fwd) What do libertarians and extropians think of the growing, mostly "right-wing" militia movement? Here in Michigan some libertarians and Objectivists seem sympathetic or even to be joining! Frankly, I see no consensus for liberty that could be served by such informal institutions. It would leak only to a Bosnia or Somolia under current conditions in my view. James Daugherty Date: Wed, 31 Aug 94 11:44:50 CDT From: Neil Dickey To: fap@world.std.com Subject: The Militia Some recent postings have pointed to the newly organizing local militias as a means of resisting the tyranny of the Federal Government; but it should be remembered that this is potentially a very dangerous development. First, we should remember that when the Federal Government decided to break the power of the Klu Klux Klan it planted so many informers among them that it may have been they outnumbered the actual members. I see no reason to believe that the Federal Government will not do this in the case of the militias. Second, these militia units are widely separated both with regard to adminis- tration and location, poorly- to un-trained, and therefore very vulnerable to Waco-type operations. Locally raised and organized, they are probably local in focus and therefore difficult to organize on a national scale. It would also be no challenge at all for the government to demonize them properly in advance of a pre-emptive strike. Third, the organization of such groups gives the timorous ones among us something to point to as exemplifying the evils inherent in private firearm ownership -- never mind that nothing more evil has been done or is contemplated Than the defense of that liberty with which we have been endowed by our creator. Fourth, the Crime Bill establishes the death penalty for treason, I am told, whatever treason may actually be. It is reasonable to suggest that if any militia units attempt to act against the Federal Government for any reason, however well justified, we would find out what they believe treason to be in short order. Fifth, words are one thing; actions are another. It is easy enough to summon up the words to speak eloquently of liberty or death, and quite another to actually start a gunfight. Mind what you do; if it comes to a fight, _every- thing_ is up for grabs. Briefly, any attempt to bend the government to the will of the people by force of arms had better be successful, and quickly at that. The way the law is written now, there would be no soldier's forgiveness following a failed campaign, no reconstruction -- such as that was. Failure would play directly into our enemies' hands and occasion repression even more draconian than we presently see. This is a no-win situation: The threat of force is not credible if it isn't credible -- as President Carter demonstrated so conclu- sively in his conduct of foreign policy. If, however, one attempts to defend his or her rights as a free man by force of arms, or indicates a willingness to do so, he can instantly be branded a traitor and insurrectionist, and squashed with impunity. It may come to that, of course, for some or all of us; but one should be aware of what he risks, and of the likelihood of defeat, from the outset. Much, obviously, would depend upon the conduct of the armed forces during such events, and I am assuming that the great majority will obey their officers. Remember that even though military morale is low, and the Commander-in-Chief is not loved by his men, we still have an all-profesional (a.k.a. all-volunteer) military and the largest standing army in our history. The way to advance in such an organization is to follow orders, whereas an army full of draftees would be less likely comply with instructions to fire on its own citizens. (If I recall correctly, it was a draftee who first began to speak publicly about My Lai, for instance.) I would be interested in the comments of readers who are in the military concerning this aspect of the issue. The behavior of the BATF and the FBI is so easily predictable that no useful purpose would be served by commenting further concerning them. The opinions which I have expressed herein are entirely my own. In no fashion should I be considered to be speaking for my employer, or for anyone but myself. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- | D. N. Dickey | Virtuous motives, trammeled by inertia and | | Research Associate | timidity, are no match for armed and | | Northern Illinois Univ. | resolute wickedness. | | neil@geol.niu.edu | - W. S. Churchill | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: James Daugherty Date: Wed, 31 Aug 1994 20:52:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [#94-8-324] Conspiracy! (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 31 Aug 1994 20:50:37 -0400 (EDT) From: James Daugherty To: act@zilker.net Cc: libernet-d@dartmouth.edu, prj@mail.msen.com Subject: Re: Conspiracy! I have read most of Robert Anton Wilson's books as well as his revealing interview in Conspriacy Digest, PO Box 766, Dearborn, MI 48121. I will post some of what he said some time to back-up my assertions. In pooh poohing his libertarianism I am speaking as an extreme advocate of laissez-faire not as a conservative. I can back-up my statement regarding his anti-private property ideas. Left-anarchist ideas totally incompatible with private property libertarianism. On Wed, 31 Aug 1994, 45354-James Parker wrote: > > James Daugherty writes: > > Well, Robert Anton Wilson is worth reading, but he is actually quite > > hostile to considering conspiracy theories seriously. He loves to > > dismiss them without serious analysis. > > Hostile? Not really. Skeptical? Yes. His primary model is that there are > multiple, competing, conspiracies, and that the the more conspiratorial they > are, the more paranoid they get and the less effective they are. > > He treats the subject with serious humor (he insists on making you think for > yourself), and does not dismiss the ideas. He does poke holes in many ideas > which could be interpreted by the conspiracy-theory faithful as "dismissing > them without serious analysis." > > > Also, Wilson's left-anarchism gets tired. He thinks "rent" is evil, etc. > > Calling Wilson a "left-anarchist" is a gross mischaracterization. He is an > anarcho-libertarian without strong left or right leanings (he appears left > only to the libertarian conservative or true conservative). I've read nearly > all his books (anyone want to sell _The Illuminatus Papers_ or _Reality is > What you Can Get Away With_?), and never come across anything he's said that > would oppose "rent" -- and I'd be rather sensitive to it if he did. > > James Parker > jap@cb1focus.att.com > \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\*///////////////////////////////////// James Daugherty, volunteer Postmaster for A-albionic Research (POB 20273, Ferndale, MI 48220), a ruling class/conspiracy research resource for the entire political-ideological spectrum. Quarterly Journal, book sales, rare/out-of-print searches, & networking since 1984. New Paradigms Gopher and FTP Site loaded with unique files and book catalogs. For introductory info on Weekly Up-date, Discussion List, free articles, & & free book catalogs e-mail to: majordomo@mail.msen.com message in body: info prj (subject doesn't matter) ------------------------------ End of Extropians Digest V94 #243 *********************************