From extropians-request@extropy.org Wed Jan 26 21:24:43 1994 Return-Path: Received: from usc.edu by chaph.usc.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1+ucs-3.0) id AA22070; Wed, 26 Jan 94 21:24:40 PST Errors-To: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Received: from news.panix.com by usc.edu (4.1/SMI-3.0DEV3-USC+3.1) id AA08043; Wed, 26 Jan 94 21:24:31 PST Errors-To: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Received: by news.panix.com id AA01668 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for more@usc.edu); Thu, 27 Jan 1994 00:01:09 -0500 Date: Thu, 27 Jan 1994 00:01:09 -0500 Message-Id: <199401270501.AA01668@news.panix.com> To: Extropians@extropy.org From: Extropians@extropy.org Subject: Extropians Digest #94-1-540 - #94-1-563 X-Extropian-Date: January 27, 374 P.N.O. [00:00:55 UTC] Reply-To: extropians@extropy.org Errors-To: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Status: RO Extropians Digest Thu, 27 Jan 94 Volume 94 : Issue 26 Today's Topics: Cog. Evolution [1 msgs] Eco-Fascist Tendencies [1 msgs] ECON: Re: A common error [1 msgs] FORWARD: Another intriguing IBM Research Lecture [1 msgs] Fractal compression and Internet commerce [1 msgs] Free US Patent Searches! [REPOST] [1 msgs] GOAL: Reduce Sleep time [5 msgs] JUSTICE: Vince's departure [2 msgs] META: Another Proposal [2 msgs] Meta: Prefixes (RFD) [2 msgs] META: Will we ever get along? [3 msgs] SEMANTICS: Faith [2 msgs] The Go-Go Future [1 msgs] Administrivia: Note: I have increased the frequency of the digests to four times a day. The digests used to be processed at 5am and 5pm, but this was too infrequent for the current bandwidth. Now digests are sent every six hours: Midnight, 6am, 12pm, and 6pm. If you experience delays in getting digests, try setting your digest size smaller such as 20k. You can do this by addressing a message to extropians@extropy.org with the body of the message as ::digest size 20 -Ray Approximate Size: 51616 bytes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 94 5:32:35 WET Subject: [#94-1-540] GOAL: Reduce Sleep time Do I lack circadian rhythm? I have no regular sleep order at all but I tend to be a nocturnal person, ever since I was very young. When I try to arrange my sleep schedule so I get up early (like around 7-8am), I find that I am lethargic all day and I get tired during the afternoon. On the other hand, if I stay up to 4am, and get up at 11am-12pm I feel refreshed. (and it's not because I haven't tried. I went to bed at 11pm and got up at 7-8am for a full month. It still didn't change my attentiveness) I have a 16-17 hour waking period, and a 7-8 hour sleeping period. As a result, my sleeping schedule slowly progresses forward each day until it flips over (I stay up >24 hours or sleep 4 hours one day to reset it) During last semester, for three months I had 19 hour days. (I would go to bed at 6-7am, get up at 12 and go to class) This arrangement works fine, I don't feel tired at all and I get homework done better at night because of the quiet. As long as I can arrange my classes in the afternoon, I'm ok. Maybe this is a hacker's disease? Even Knuth would stay up till 5am in the morning, and then catnap before he had to teach class. When I have to get up at sunrise, I can force myself too, but I don't feel like myself all day. I prefer to get up at noon or even better, sundown. Also, when I sleep, I sleep like a rock. Noise doesn't wake me up, and I don't get up in the middle of sleep (this might be a problem. A few times I have woken up and my arm was numb from it being in one position for too long) Anybody else have a weird sleeping pattern? Ideally, I would like to reduce my sleep to 4 hours a day but I'm afraid doing it artificially (via drugs) could be biologically or psychologically harming. -Ray -- Ray Cromwell | Engineering is the implementation of science; -- -- rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu | politics is the implementation of faith. -- ------------------------------ From: price@price.demon.co.uk (Michael Clive Price) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 94 11:51:41 GMT Subject: [#94-1-541] META: Will we ever get along? Ray quite rightly says: > Why is it that we can't stay and negotiate our problems instead of > running away? [..] We are going to run into big problems in the > future with accepted paradigms, so we better resolve the problems > among ourselves first. [...] you don't have to unsubscribe -- stay > and argue it out. I strongly agree with your sentiments. Which is why I support your idea of a no-holds-barred open discussion of the list justice system - with a mandatory prefix JUSTICE or LEGAL or whatever - if only Simon! would agree. BTW the snap poll I conducted has reached 13-0 in favour of an open discussion. I'll publish the final total later today. As a member of PPL-A I don't know whether to laugh at the absurd way PPL1 is driving away customers or cry at the disrepute ExI (as PPL1 official backer) is being tarred with. One of the problems, IMO, is that PPL1 _is_ seen as ExI's official mouthpiece and therefore acting as the List Management. This gets people's backs up, triggers off folks' paranoia - perhaps quite justifiably - we don't know unless we discuss it! Here is my suggestion: *** It would be better if the list justice PPLs were "unbundled" from the PPL chartering process. *** ExI explicitly enters the scene as the entity that validates a PPL's charter on proposed PPL creation or change. If they don't like it it don't get created/changed. What I propose is that PPL1 should be (almost) the same as other PPLs. All PPLs are equal - each has their own law for resolving intra-PPL disputes. Each PPL's charter, in addition to it's own rules, subscribes to an inter-PPL charter or code which lays out how inter-PPL disputes are mediated. PPL Heads that run amok (deviate from their own charter) lose members to other PPLs, via market forces. [note: PPL1 is then just ExI's own contribution to the PPL scene - with one difference - it is the default PPL until a list members chooses otherwise (ie finds an another ExI- recognised PPL that accepts them).] My own proposal for the inter-PPL charter is simplicity itself. Anyone can file charges against anyone, but they are judged solely against the defendant's PPL charter or etiquette code. A natural Schelling point I feel, although more complex solutions must be possible. Mike Price price@price.demon.co.uk AnarchyPPL client ------------------------------ From: bangell@cs.utah.edu (bob angell) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 1994 05:47:34 -0700 (MST) Subject: [#94-1-542] GOAL: Reduce Sleep time > Do I lack circadian rhythm? I have no regular sleep order at all >but I tend to be a nocturnal person, ever since I was very young. I feel the same way ... no pattern whatsoever. However, I sometimes go days with very little sleep ~4 hours/day tops - being very productive; afterwards I drool for a few days in the corner. :-) I have found that since I started waking at 3:45am and walking 3-5 each day at that hour that I feel good all day, however, I do get a tad sleepy around 8am and also late afternoon can be difficult .... and I try to get to bed between 8:30 and 9:30pm ... its been working well for me so far (last 4 weeks). >When I try to arrange my sleep schedule so I get up early (like around >7-8am), I find that I am lethargic all day and I get tired during the >afternoon. On the other hand, if I stay up to 4am, and get up at 11am-12pm >I feel refreshed. I use to pull close to all-nighters (4-5am) sleep until 7 or 8am and then go-go-go all day long .... but sustained over a year practically killed me - Blood Pressure up, Ulcers, caffeine immune, weight gain, etc. .... I don't think one can generally reduce sleep over the long haul because our body somehow needs between 7 and 9 hours of sleep. I have a friend who is a physician and he was saying that one of the well-known studies in this area says that less than 7 hours/night decreases your life-span by X number of years ... >Even Knuth would stay up till 5am in the morning, and then catnap before >he had to teach class. 4 hours at night and 10 min naps/2 hours I have heard can be the best. > When I have to get up at sunrise, I can force myself too, but I don't You don't suck blood in your spare time, do you? > Anybody else have a weird sleeping pattern? Ideally, I would like to >reduce my sleep to 4 hours a day but I'm afraid doing it artificially >(via drugs) could be biologically or psychologically harming. psychosis can set in .... I know, I came very close. -Bob- -- Bob Angell | Data Integration (multi-platform) Principal | AWK, C/C++, RDBMS langs, Paradox Management Systems Engineering | Health Systems Engineering Applied Information & Management Systems | Database design/development 1238 Fenway Avenue - SLC, UT 84102-3212 | Simulation/Modeling/Neural Nets bangell@cs.utah.edu; Voice: 801-583-8544 | Freelance writer, major publications IBMLINK:DEV4534, TEAMOS/2 | OS/2 2.x Application Developer [Disclaimer: I don't speak for IBM or the University of Utah!] ------------------------------ From: jrk@sys.uea.ac.uk (Richard Kennaway) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 94 14:35:05 GMT Subject: [#94-1-543] GOAL: Reduce Sleep time I organise my sleeping by two simple rules: When tired in the evening, I go to bed. When I wake, I get up. As long as I stick to this, I find I get about 6 hrs a night. There are three obstacles: -- Making the effort to go to bed as soon as I realise I'm too tired to do anything more useful, and not just dozing off in an armchair. -- Getting up as soon as I realise I'm awake, and not lazing in. -- External commitments that require staying up later or getting up earlier. -- ____ Richard Kennaway __\_ / School of Information Systems jrk@sys.uea.ac.uk \ X/ University of East Anglia \/ Norwich NR4 7TJ, U.K. ------------------------------ From: price@price.demon.co.uk (Michael Clive Price) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 94 13:25:06 GMT Subject: [#94-1-544] The Go-Go Future I said: > Per capita real annualised GDP growth for: > UK USA [..] > 1950-90 2.2% 1.9% > 1980-90 2.3% 1.85 I thought it might be interesting to see a decade-by-decade breakdown. Here it is (source: IMF national statistics via _The Economist_): 1950-60 1960-70 1970-80 1980-90 US 1.7% 2.5% 1.7% 1.8% UK 2.5% 2.3% 1.7% 2.3% Again, these are real annualised per capita GDP or GNP growth, which is the only objective way of measuring these things. Mike Price price@price.demon.co.uk AnarchyPPL client ------------------------------ From: price@price.demon.co.uk (Michael Clive Price) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 94 14:36:40 GMT Subject: [#94-1-545] Eco-Fascist Tendencies Tim Starr: > Aside from tobacco-related lung cancer, the incidence of [other] > cancer in the USA has been declining for decades, when corrected > for the increased age of the population. But has almost levelled off since 1975. See Jan 1994 Sci Am p120. Mike Price price@price.demon.co.uk AnarchyPPL client ------------------------------ From: cards@top.cis.syr.edu Date: Wed, 26 Jan 94 9:41:36 EST Subject: [#94-1-546] SEMANTICS: Faith Aha! Cracks appear in the extropian dogma of pure reason! As little as we might like the idea that "We can never REALLY 'know' anything", it is the sad truth. Absolute, objective knowledge is impossible. Given that, however, we still have to live in the real world. The question is not whether induction, deduction or any other route to knowledge is 'correct' or 'reliable' in any absolute sense, but whether it is USEFUL. We have Robert Anton Wilson on our reading list; I think many of us would benefit from a more careful reading of his work, especially _The New Inquisition: Irrational Rationalism and the Citadel of Science_, in which he addresses precisely this issue. And now for my heresy: since reason is not ultimately 'true' but merely useful (very much so and often), how about admitting the usefulness of other paths to knowledge, like MYSTICISM? I can hear the anguished screams already... there is no closed mind like that of a dogmatic rationalist :-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Stuart W. Card, Consultant, Card & Associates -- Research & Development Box 153 RR 1 Newport Rd Utica NY 13502 315-735-1717 / FAX -8469 swc@uc1.ucsu.edu or cards@top.cis.syr.edu "Who is John Galt?" ------------------------------ From: mgix@jpn.thomson-di.fr (Emmanuel Mogenet) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 1994 22:24:07 +0900 (JST) Subject: [#94-1-547] GOAL: Reduce Sleep time Ray writes: > > Anybody else have a weird sleeping pattern? Ideally, I would like to >reduce my sleep to 4 hours a day but I'm afraid doing it artificially >(via drugs) could be biologically or psychologically harming. > I have exactly the same pattern. If I get up early, I find myself completely incapable of doing anything creative with code before ~5p.m. That's when ideas start to flow in. On the other hand, when I wake up at 12, after -just like you- rock sleep, my afternoon is good, and my night (i.e. till ~3 am) is extremely fruitful. But, there might be another reason. Programming is an extremely creative activity (whatever most people think) that requires a lot of peace. That peace is best found at night, when the world at large stops making noise. - Mgix! _____________________________________________________________________________ Emmanuel Mogenet <.^.> PGP Public Key on Request, MIME Accepted -oOO-V-OOo-- _____________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ From: cards@top.cis.syr.edu Date: Wed, 26 Jan 94 10:01:50 EST Subject: [#94-1-548] Fractal compression and Internet commerce Mike Linksvayer suggests a need for a market for distributed computation. I have given this a fair amount of thought over the last few months. In a few more months, I will be setting up a rather large virtual subnetwork of the Internet. Since my on-line archival storage requirements will be very high, I plan to offer my subscribers a route to offset their subscription costs: provide me with randomly hashed storage. When a file needs to be archived, I will break it into N pieces. I will then distribute those N pieces to M >> N sites (so that erach piece is stored redundantly) according to a random hash. Just to be sure my clients are not scamming me by pretending to store more than they are actually keeping around, I will make frequent random requests for files that I don't really need, just to see who is unable to reproduce them. Eventually, actual retrieval requirements will grow to the point where they will provide an adequate check and I can dispense with the bogus retrieval requests. Enough of the trivial operational plan... how about the market? As long as my network service is unique, it will consist of my attempts to determine an optimal price to pay for storage, which will assure that I have all that I need but pay as little as possible to get it. Once my competitors spring up, a 'real' market should emerge. I have not addresses actual computation at all, since my application uses computers to support communication rather than the other way around, and I don't need audio/video compression for my files (which will be almost exclusively text). nothing revolutionary here, just grist for the list mills ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Stuart W. Card, Consultant, Card & Associates -- Research & Development Box 153 RR 1 Newport Rd Utica NY 13502 315-735-1717 / FAX -8469 swc@uc1.ucsu.edu or cards@top.cis.syr.edu "Who is John Galt?" ------------------------------ From: rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 94 10:06:07 WET Subject: [#94-1-549] SEMANTICS: Faith cards@top.cis.syr.edu writes: > And now for my heresy: since reason is not ultimately > 'true' but merely useful (very much so and often), > how about admitting the usefulness of other paths > to knowledge, like MYSTICISM? Could it be that MYSTICISM hasn't produced anything useful lately? When was the last time it cured cancer, launched a communications satelilite, revived someone from biostasis, or multiplied intelligence by a thousand fold? Maybe you need to admit to yourself that we have different standards of usefulness. Besides the truistic bull ``we can't truly know something'' how about providing some real examples of where the assumption of an objective universe outside ourselves has caused a prediction to fail? Perhaps the assumption of an objective universe is ``useful''? No one has absolute belief in anything, even catholic priests, but the confidence in physical theory is strong, and good enough for us to send probes to Jupiter. Mysticism might have had its uses, but in the modern world, it's a loser compared to what rational though has given us. > I can hear the anguished screams already... > there is no closed mind like that of a dogmatic > rationalist :-) Try a Christian Fundamentalist. Atleast the dogmatic rationalist will see the errors of his ways if you show him a counterproof or counterevidence. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Stuart W. Card, Consultant, Card & Associates -- Research & Development > Box 153 RR 1 Newport Rd Utica NY 13502 315-735-1717 / FAX -8469 > swc@uc1.ucsu.edu or cards@top.cis.syr.edu "Who is John Galt?" An objectivist railing against reason? Is the world coming to an end? -Ray, with 99.99% confidence that this message will be posted and a dragon will not materialize above my head to bite it off. -- Ray Cromwell | Engineering is the implementation of science; -- -- rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu | politics is the implementation of faith. -- ------------------------------ From: D Nicoll Date: 26 Jan 94 14:28:30 GMT Subject: [#94-1-551] Cog. Evolution I'm interested in doing some research into the notion of a seperate cognitive faculty, or 'module' that exists due to exposure to electronic media. I understand the modular notion of cognitive processing as posited by Jerry Fodar has raised debate, not least from people such as Paul Churchland. I would like any comments, advice or references, on this subject, particularly with a view to the idea of disparity of evolutionary development between this module (if it exists) and the larger, more rooted 'natural' module, the one that we still predominately use, but may use less in the future. I have an idea that this may not only explain the use of media, but the use of technology per se. How about it? Thanks, DEREK ------------------------------ From: nzr20@amdahlcsdc.com (Nicholas Russon) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 1994 13:22:52 -0500 Subject: [#94-1-552] Meta: Prefixes (RFD) Harry wrote: > This is a request for discussion. > > In my view prefixes are great. Agreed...they provide very useful keywording for some topics. (To be honest, I can more successfully ignore threads which properly use prefixes, because once I've decided I don't want to follow it further, the prefix "clues me in" that I don't need to see further postings). > They now allow the list software to be used better (it makes > it easier to exclude a meta-thread). I've not been using many of the list software features until recently, but I can certainly see the applicablility. > An option is for us to put the prefix "MISC:" on every subject > line that doesn't have a prefix. This would encourage users to > use prefixes (since I assume they don't want the "misc" prefix > attached to their post). I oppose this becoming mandatory, because in my case, I have a less-than- perfect mail reader (a very old version of elm). Not germane? Well, it automatically prepends Re: every time I respond to a posting, and I can't edit the line to eliminate it. I _can_ delete the line and retype it, but I'm not the world's most accurate typist and I would probably create subtly different spellings of the subject, which might defeat other X-folks' ::exclude commands. Thus, I could end up seeming to want to "break" the ::exclude thread mechanism by brute force. > I am interested in a brief discussion of this. Does anyone have > any strong feelings against this idea or prefixes in general. If > you don't like the idea, please also present some alternative... I'd like to see it strongly encouraged, because it IS useful, but if you make it mandatory, I'll have to call on my representative Anarch far too often! ;-) Regards, Nicholas -- Nicholas nzr20@amdahlcsdc.com | Our universities are so determined Russon nzr20@amail.amdahl.com | to impose tolerance that they'll n.russon@ieee.org | expel you for saying what you think nicholas.russon@canrem.com | and never notice the irony. Antares SDC Mississauga Ont. 905-542-6530| (John Perry Barlow) ------------------------------ From: edgar@spectrx.saigon.com (Edgar W. Swank) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 94 07:01:08 PST Subject: [#94-1-553] FORWARD: Another intriguing IBM Research Lecture Although only Extropians in the Bay Area may be able to attend this, In may be of interest to a wider audience. Sounds like a theory of Spontaneous Order. ================================================================ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 94 10:05:38 PST From: IBM Almaden Research Center Calendar To: "General-Interest@spectrx.saigon.com, Distribution@spectrx.saigon.com, List":@spectrx.saigon.com, ;@spectrx.saigon.com Message-ID: <940120.100538.calendar@almaden.ibm.com> Subject: IBM ARC seminars 24 - 28 JAN 94 IBM Almaden Research Center 650 Harry Road San Jose, CA 95120-6099 CALENDAR January 24-28, 1994 ... 01/28 - ORDER FROM DISORDER: THE SPATIOTEMPORAL DYNAMICS OF AN INTRINSICALLY CHAOTIC SYSTEM F. Abraham, Almaden Research Center Sci. Colloq. Fri., January 28 10:30 a.m. Room: Aud. B Over the last two decades, the field of nonlinear dynamics has introduced many new concepts, such as sensitivity to initial conditions, strange attractors, period doubling, chaos and complexity. Associated with these discoveries are names like Poincare, Kolmogorov, Lorenz, Ruelle, May and Feigenbaum. We will first describe certain modern ideas about the dynamics of nonlinear systems with just a few degrees of freedom, an example being the chaotic damped-driven pendulum. Then we will introduce the conceptionally simple generalization of a lattice of coupled chaotic oscillators. The harmonic coupling between these chaotic oscillators gives rise to a very complex and rich spatiotemporal dynamics as a function of coupling strength, system size and dimensionality. Furthermore, this system obeys "real fluid" turbulence scaling laws. This suggests that this simple model and extensions to more realistic representations of physical systems may provide a fruitful paradigm for studying pattern formation in the real world. Movies will be shown. Host: B. Jones ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For further information on individual talks, please contact the host listed above. Visitors, please arrive 15 minutes early. IBM's Almaden Research Center (ARC) is located adjacent to Santa Teresa County Park, between Almaden Expressway and U.S. 101, about 10 miles south of Interstate 280. From U.S. 101, exit at Bernal Road, and follow Bernal Road west past Santa Teresa Blvd. into the hills (ignoring the left turn for Santa Teresa Park). Alternatively, follow Almaden Expressway to its southern terminus, turn left onto Harry Road, then go right at the ARC entrance (about a quarter of a mile later) and go up the hill. For more detailed directions, please phone the ARC receptionist at (408) 927-1080. IBM Almaden Research Center electronically distributes both its complete calendar of seminars and a subset of Computer Science seminars only. Send requests for inclusion in either electronic mailing list to CALENDAR@ALMADEN.IBM.COM (CALENDAR at ALMADEN on BITNET), specifying either the complete calendar or the Computer Science subset. -- edgar@spectrx.saigon.com (Edgar W. Swank) SPECTROX SYSTEMS +1.408.252.1005 Cupertino, Ca ------------------------------ From: price@price.demon.co.uk (Michael Clive Price) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 94 14:41:16 GMT Subject: [#94-1-554] GOAL: Reduce Sleep time Ray: > Anybody else have a weird sleeping pattern? I too seem to have a weak sleeping pattern, although I'm more of an early bird than a night owl. Though with only 5 hours a night it hardly matters. :-) > Ideally, I would like to reduce my sleep to 4 hours a day but I'm > afraid doing it artificially (via drugs) could be biologically or > psychologically harming. Be careful about cutting back on "what your body needs". I know 2 people who suffered permanent psychological changes after sleep deprivation, although it was coupled with fasting. One became manic- depressive with an approx 1-year cycle. The other became agoraphobic (passing out in the open while famished and tired seems to have triggered it). Both ongoing. Sleep when you need to. Mike Price price@price.demon.co.uk AnarchyPPL client ------------------------------ From: rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 94 12:29:19 WET Subject: [#94-1-555] ECON: Re: A common error Dani Eder writes: > Here's a combination that addresses the issues in the above paragraphs: > (1) Advanced fusion as a power source (i.e. not Tokamaks, which represent > primitive fusion). Either Paul Koloc's plasmak concept or the electric > confinement concept developed by Bussard and being tested by Univ. of Ill. > would be sufficient. You know, the PLASMAK(tm) sounds really interesting, but I'm starting to think it's just another cold fusion. Do you have any more information on it besides the tidbits that Kuloc posts to sci.physics.fusion (when attacking Tokamak's) I see little hope of the Tokamak ever being commercially successful or viable for space use. Are electrostatic concepts really being tested? I thought Tokamak's and megalaser based inertial confinement killed most of the funding for alternative concepts or is it being tested with private university money rather than DoE money? -- Ray Cromwell | Engineering is the implementation of science; -- -- rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu | politics is the implementation of faith. -- ------------------------------ From: graps@clio.arc.nasa.gov (Amara Graps) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 94 09:55:22 -0800 Subject: [#94-1-556] JUSTICE: Vince's departure Extro-folks: Well, if you've been waiting for some kind of explanation from me about Vince's departure, remember that I get the digested form and don't see your messages until 12-48 hours after they are posted. Maybe I can offer some insight on what happened between Simon! and Vince. Imagine that you are Vince, with some extra time on your hands and alot of things to say. After a conversation in person with Harry, you ask him to put you on the list, you get added, and you receive a Welcome message that is completely reasonable and with which you agree. So far, so good. Then a week later you get notified that the list will cost its participants, and because you still like the way the list is run, and the participants in it, you send in your $14. (I hope he gets his money back.) Then a couple of days later you get a notice from the new list dictator laying down the law. Being Vince, and having a knee-jerk reaction to authority, you react. You object to being placed in a default PPL with such a set of laws. You object to paying for a list that had a "No Letters to the Editor" rule. In Vince's mind, moving to another PPL didn't solve the problem. Simon! could still boot him off when, where, and how he wanted. Since Vince didn't have a history on the list, he figured that he didn't have much to lose and wanted to force Simon!'s bluff. What resulted got out-of-hand and he reacted rather than proacted. He egged Simon! on. Simon! egged him on. Vince's last bitter public response on the matter was actually in direct response to a private post by Simon! where Simon! described putting Vince on an electrical fence and turning up the voltage. I doubt that I would've handled the situation the same way, but then, I'm not Vince. I voted with my feet and moved to Geoff's PPL. Even so, I will wait until the last minute to send in my money because, frankly, I'm not sure that I want to be on a list run by Simon!. If you had just joined the list and the Welcome message was Simon!'s list law instead of Harry's message, would you have wanted to stay on? You can bet your nanomachines that I would've said "no thanks" in two seconds flat. Overall, they both appear to have gotten what they wanted. Simon! didn't want Vince on the list and Vince didn't want to be on Simon!'s list. What resulted was two boys in the back schoolyard bloodying each others noses. Amara Graps graps@gal.arc.nasa.gov ------------------------------ From: Bo Date: Wed, 26 Jan 1994 10:19:03 -0700 (MST) Subject: [#94-1-557] META: Will we ever get along? Ray talks of getting along....and of how _some_ people fly off the handle and "unsubscribe", etc...especially objectivists. When I first "arrived", I pushed a little...and uncovered some of those types. They exist everywhere....dogmatic pseudo-pundits who think that if you don't think like they do, your thoughts are not worth thinking about! Everybody cherishes their own thoughts and beliefs, but when they refuse to see _any_ value in something that might be opposed to their way of thinking...they do a great dis-service to both parties. Even flamers and detweilers have their uses..... Tolerance and rational acceptance....key words when faced with so much i/o. My own personal feeling about this is that you can't hate something in somebody without hating that thing in yourself. Hate (and Fear) is the mindkiller.... Bo (Sorry...due to limited time allotments I only see posts from a limited number of Extropians...I exclude no-one, but include only a few...mail me personal if you wish.) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bo the Bohemian....disregarding conventional standards and behavior. *****************************[ "Narrow-mindedness is a rampant disease.....help stamp it out!!!" ****************%%%%Bo@bohemia.metronet.org%%%%********************** ------------------------------ From: trestrab@GVSU.EDU (BETH TRESTRAIL) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 94 13:00:14 EST Subject: [#94-1-558] Free US Patent Searches! [REPOST] I have ::Nosent a message concerning an on-line patent search service being started by EDS. A small portion of the forwarded meesage follows so that you can determine for yourselves if its of any interest. The message number if you wish to have it ::resent to you is: #94-1-550 Jeff trestrab@gvsu.edu ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Free US Patent Searches! Electronic Data Systems' Shadow Patent Office (SPO) is offering the Internet community free electronic mail-based patent search services until 5:00 pm CST, January 28th. Keyword and manual searches are now obsolete. With the EDS SPO technology, patent research is now based on the concepts and ideas expressed. The SPO database contains US full-text patents from 1972 to the present. SPO utilizes the EDS-designed, high performance MAYA Concept Search Engine. SPO is dedicating 16 of the 32 MAYA CPUs and 20 Gigabytes of RAM for the test. The 1.7 million patents contain 80 gigabytes of textual data. MAYA is used to determine the 100 closest patents from the 1.7 million patents in the SPO database. To obtain a search, simply address an Internet mail message to spo_net_test@edsr.eds.com. SPO is offering Internet users access to two types of searches: subject search and infringement search. ---------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: "Harry S. Hawk" Date: Wed, 26 Jan 1994 13:43:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: [#94-1-559] JUSTICE: Vince's departure > If you had just joined the list and the Welcome message was Simon!'s list > law instead of Harry's message, would you have wanted to stay on? You can > didn't want Vince on the list and Vince didn't want to be on Simon!'s > list. What resulted was two boys in the back schoolyard bloodying each A quick point. I still run the list. Of course it is ExI's list, not mine or Simon!'s. Simon just runs PPL-1. Even when I was running PPL-1, I was a member of PPL-A; I like its rules better. My suggestion that if anyone doesn't like the way Simon! is running PPL-1 leave it, and join PPL-A. TO fight about it, doesn't make any sense though. /hawk -- Harry S. Hawk habs@extropy.org Electronic Communications Officer, Extropy Institute Inc. The Extropians Mailing List, Since 1991 ------------------------------ From: "Harry S. Hawk" Date: Wed, 26 Jan 1994 13:46:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: [#94-1-560] Meta: Prefixes (RFD) a conscious being, Nicholas Russon wrote: > I oppose this becoming mandatory, because in my case, I have a less-than- > perfect mail reader (a very old version of elm). Not germane? Well, > it automatically prepends Re: every time I respond to a posting, and > I can't edit the line to eliminate it. I _can_ delete the line and > Nicholas Well there is good news. As you are new the software, you haven't noticed that our software automatically removes the "re:" before a message is posted; no need to manually delete it... ------------------------------ From: rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 94 14:49:45 WET Subject: [#94-1-561] META: Another Proposal In the midst of list law flames, I offer the following proposal as a damage control mechanism and a new type of ``punishment'' besides the usual posting ban/feed disable (which raises certain issues since the user paid for the delivery of something he isn't getting) Simply put, I think we should appoint a moderator who moderates the posts of "prisoners" The moderator should be a sensitive person with good judgement and without bias. The moderator's job would be to screen the posts of those who have been temporarily punished. Here's a scenario. Ann and Bob get into a heated discussion and Ann calls Bob some names. Ann gets a warning to stop the flame. Ann keeps up the behavior and the benevolent ``list dictator'' steps in and decides whether Ann should be punished. If Ann is punished, the ``list dictator'' flips a bit on Ann's list account and all of her posts for a certain period (say 1 week) are forwarded to the list moderator. (warden of the list prison) The list moderator's job is to simply read Ann's posts. If they contain personal flames, they will not be posted. If they don't contain flames, they get posted. After one week, Ann is allowed to post normally again. The moderator is simply a babysitter who watches Ann to make sure she doesn't flame. People who agree to restrain their flames might be given the benefit of the doubt and released on their own recognizance (at first), but a pattern of flaming with no sign of restraint buys you a ticket into moderation. I realize that the people on this list are incredibly anti-authority and would despise any type of "big brother" censoring their posts, but as a commercial list, we must retain some form of quality on the list and that takes a little bit of control for those who have no self control. In the future, the software might have more elaborate mechanisms for filtering out those who flame and/or break the rules, but for now, it is all too easy to get around ::exclude user/thread (just change the subject, or get someone else to quote you) So how does this proposal sound? Moderation is very common on usenet and other mailing lists, and this would be only be temporary moderation impose on thoses who can not control their flames. I want to see a quick end to this legal debate because frankly, it's taking up too much of the list bandwidth. Perhaps I should set up a separate gnu list for those who are intresting in fine tuning the legal system? Furthermore, I propose a moderate application of the list rules. Someone shouldn't be punished for just one snide remark ("Foo, you are obviously an idiot for believing this..") but a pattern of abuse. It's usually easy to tell when things get out of hand (such as the May-ESR debate, or Pandit Singh) Of course if Bob decides to press charges, the list rules could be invoked earlier but I think we should avoid trivialities. Also, I think a punished user should be able to get out of prison early for good behavior by posting a public apology in good faith. One thing we need on this list is a bit of humility. -Ray ObBabylon-5: it starts tonight at 8/9pm in most areas. Don't miss it. -- Ray Cromwell | Engineering is the implementation of science; -- -- rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu | politics is the implementation of faith. -- ------------------------------ From: nws@garnet.berkeley.edu (Nan Wolfslayer) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 1994 13:42:06 -0800 Subject: [#94-1-562] META: Will we ever get along? Ray says: > Why is it that we can't have simple intellectual disagreements without >calling each other names? Why is it that we can't stay and negotiate our >problems instead of running away? > I think that we need to develop a better sense of humor. Most people have a very difficult time with having their pet ideas questioned. Myself included, but I'm trying to work on that - used to be I could feel my blood pressure rise along with my hackles. Insecurity is a pain in the butt - and the bain of those who think. Kind of like a vacillation effect from total fear to extreme arrogance. I hesitate to get involved with this discussion because it is quite a stressfull time for me as both my parents have cancer, and because of this I might not be thinking as clear as I should about any subjects. However, on the other hand - it does have a way of putting things into percpective. What I'm trying to say is, relax. It's okay to be wrong. It's okay to be questioned. There are really no complete answers - its the game thats fun. Nan 'feel good' Wolfslayer Berkeley Cabel "Chin up; fangs extended" ------------------------------ From: "Harry S. Hawk" Date: Wed, 26 Jan 1994 19:09:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: [#94-1-563] META: Another Proposal a conscious being, Ray wrote: > Simply put, I think we should appoint a moderator who moderates the > posts of "prisoners" The moderator should be a sensitive person with > good judgement and without bias. The moderator's job would be to screen > the posts of those who have been temporarily punished. I strongly support this idea. I think it allows us to have the best of all worlds. I think S/N is very important to ExI. I also think it is important to most if not all users. We must do almost anything we can to increase maintain S/N. /hawk ------------------------------ End of Extropians Digest V94 #26 ********************************