From extropians-request@extropy.org Fri Dec 17 16:03:20 1993 Return-Path: Received: from usc.edu by chaph.usc.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1+ucs-3.0) id AA11412; Fri, 17 Dec 93 16:03:16 PST Errors-To: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Received: from news.panix.com by usc.edu (4.1/SMI-3.0DEV3-USC+3.1) id AA25387; Fri, 17 Dec 93 16:03:08 PST Errors-To: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Received: by news.panix.com id AA12772 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for more@usc.edu); Fri, 17 Dec 1993 18:56:21 -0500 Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1993 18:56:21 -0500 Message-Id: <199312172356.AA12772@news.panix.com> To: Extropians@extropy.org From: Extropians@extropy.org Subject: Extropians Digest X-Extropian-Date: December 17, 373 P.N.O. [23:55:53 UTC] Reply-To: extropians@extropy.org Errors-To: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Status: RO Extropians Digest Fri, 17 Dec 93 Volume 93 : Issue 350 Today's Topics: [1 msgs] Call for papers [1 msgs] Cancer (was "Holiday Greetings," ironically) [2 msgs] Chillin' with the Transhumans [1 msgs] DREAMING: Harv's guide ... [1 msgs] Extropian children [2 msgs] FWD: The Exchange [1 msgs] GUNS: (fwd) Suggested "commercial" [1 msgs] Holiday Greeting [1 msgs] Kids these days [1 msgs] META: List Justice--Why It's Likely to be Flawed [1 msgs] META: suggestion for "list of filtered messages" [1 msgs] NEURO: drugs and memory [2 msgs] Speed of evolution (was Human Language) [1 msgs] The Importance of Listening [1 msgs] The possible benefits of reverting to youth (was: death, shmeath...)[1 msgs] VOUDON: The Eyes of Master Bates [3 msgs] Administrivia: No admin msg. Approximate Size: 52933 bytes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 17 Dec 93 10:03:01 -0500 From: Jeff Fabijanic Subject: The possible benefits of reverting to youth (was: death, shmeath...) Nancy writes: >A vaguely related question: If the only way that you could get >the learning speed of a three-year old was by spending a while >as a three-year old (say, in order to become a "native speaker" >of more languages), would you do it? In a New York minute! Of course, I suspect that this will soon be possible (if it's not already) by the use of neuropharmacueticals. You'd have to insure a well-designed environment, though. I'd want to be sure that the only new imprints I picked up while in such a receptive state were the one's I wanted (no product placement please!). -jeff fabi-goo-goo ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1993 10:28:01 -0500 (EST) From: Harry Shapiro Subject: META: List Justice--Why It's Likely to be Flawed a conscious being, Harvey Newstrom wrote: > What does the adjudicator do? What are the requirements? I > might want to become more involved. I have already paid my list fees (in > advance of actual implementation), so I should be around for a while, > and I do have some history with the list. The adjudicator is the appeals judge for the list. It is a position assigned by the ExI board (historically), and is most likely going to be assigned to a board member. /hawk -- Harry S. Hawk habs@extropy.org Electronic Communications Officer, Extropy Institute Inc. The Extropians Mailing List, Since 1991 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1993 10:31:58 -0500 From: David Eagle USG Subject: ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Dec 93 9:39:07 CST From: jajohnso@ingr.com Subject: META: suggestion for "list of filtered messages" I've recently done an "exclude all" command for the extropians list. It's great ! No more 130+ messages a day ! I get the neat "list of filtered messages" message about two or three times a day, and then I can pick the articles I want to read ( usually only about 10% of them ). It's a lot like reading a high-volume newsgroup now. Anyway, I have some suggestions. Could the "list of filtered messages" include the number of lines in the message ( like XRN does for newsgroup articles, and ELM does for e-mail ). That way, I could better guestimate if it's a "yeah, me too"-type message, or if it's really got something to say. Also, perhaps a "*" next to the line count to indicate that it's been automatically truncated because it's too long, or if it has a "nosend" item in it. Also, lots of messages in the "list of filtered messages" don't have a subject for some reason ( even though the real article had a subject ). See below for an example. > Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1993 05:49:28 -0500 > To: jajohnso@ingr.com > From: extropians-request@extropy.org (List Processing System) > Subject: List of Filtered Messages > > Message # Subject From > #93-12-432 TEST: Harry, did this one get through? T. David Burns > #93-12-433 "Joys" of Children (was Brave New Extrop E. Dean Tribble > #93-12-434 Nightly Market Report The Hawthorne Exchange [ stuff deleted ] > #93-12-448 ^^^^^^^^^^ No subject here. What I'm proposing would look like: Message # Subject From #93-12-432 TEST: Harry, did this one get through? [38] T. David Burns #93-12-433 "Joys" of Children (was Brave New Extrop [14*] E. Dean Tribble Thanks, ====================================================================== Jeffrey Adam Johnson Internet: jajohnso@ingr.com ("I speak only for myself.") ====================================================================== "The conclusion is thus inescapable that the history, concept, and wording of the Second Amendment to the Constitution of the United States, as well as its interpretation by every major commentator and court in the first half-century after its ratification, indicates that what is protected is an individual right of a private citizen to own and carry firearms in a peaceful manner." - Report of the Subcommittee on the Constitution of the Committee on the Judiciary, United States Senate, 97th Congress, Second Session ( February 1982 ) ====================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Dec 93 10:08:29 CST From: lists@alan.b30.ingr.com (Alan Barksdale (lists)) Subject: Kids these days > Alan Barksdale quotes: > > > ______________________________________________________________________________ > > | It is impossible to address the problem of rampant crime without talking | > > | about the moral responsibility of the intended victim. Crime is rampant | > > | because the law-abiding, each of us, condone it, excuse it, permit it, | > > | submit to it. We permit and encourage it because we do not fight back, | > > | immediately, then and there, where it happens. Crime is not rampant | > > | because we do not have enough prisons, because judges and prosecutors are | > > | too soft, because the police are hamstrung with absurd technicalities. | > > | The defect is there, in our character. We are a nation of cowards and | > > | shirkers. --- from "A Nation of Cowards", Jeffrey R. Snyder, | > > Isn't it nice to know that the Left doesn't have a monopoly on > collectivist guilt peddling? > > Arthur D. Hlavaty hlavaty@panix.com > "The Mason's face is ajar."--Firesign Theater Indeed. Part of the advantage of fighting evil memes with other memes instead of physical force is that the people affected can choose whether to allow the memes to affect them. ______________________________________________________________________________ | Being armed means never having to say, "I'm sorry...there was nothing | | daddy could do to stop them from raping you." --- Tim Grothause | | --- Alan Barksdale --- afbarksd@ingr.com --- 205-730-3764 --- | ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Dec 93 16:11:29 GMT From: price@price.demon.co.uk (Michael Clive Price) Subject: Extropian children Jay Freeman: > In most kinds of animals, a disproportionate amount of brain ^^^^^^^ > development takes place before birth. ^^^^^ I assume you mean either "placental mammals" or "birth or hatching". Most animals do not give birth, although amongst the higher vertebrates a lot of brain development does take place before birth/hatching, I agree. > [..] that that seems to be the way that things evolved. I'd be cautious about drawing conclusions from the way things turned out. Evolution seems full of branch points where chance plays a big part. If the asteriod hadn't struck perhaps we all have scaly green skin and bug eyes, praising the merits of egg-laying. Mike Price price@price.demon.co.uk PS I liked _Inferno_ too. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1993 22:55:46 +0900 (JST) From: mgix@jpn.thomson-di.fr (Emmanuel Mogenet) Subject: DREAMING: Harv's guide ... Harvey Newstrom (a dreaming being, it seems ;) writes: >I have found a way to use my sleep time: Lucid Dreaming. >Lucid Dreaming is where you realize you are dreaming, but don't wake up. >At this point you can use the time in the dream for a consciously chosen >purpose rather than just random dreaming. How do you get to that point is the problem. >- Problem solving. I have gone to bed with a technical problem, worked it >out during dream sleep, and actually woken up with the solution completely >planned. The solution actually was implemented on-the-job! That did happen to me a couple of times. However, I'm totally incapable to *provoke* it (not that I didn't try), and second, it bloody wakes me up ! Once the solution to the problem's here, I have to download it on paper. Else it's gone in the morning. I sometime have the feeling that dreams just hang on to memory by a tiny strand that is broken at wakeup time 90% of the time. >It's cheap, it's free, it's already installed! >__ Yeah! ..... er .... Where's the steering wheel ? - Emmanuel _____________________________________________________________________________ Emmanuel Mogenet <.^.> PGP Public Key on Request, MIME Accepted -oOO-V-OOo-- _____________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Dec 93 11:41:46 -0500 From: Jeff Fabijanic Subject: NEURO: drugs and memory Kennita asks: > I have heard from one person who said they didn't like their > experience with marijuana because in the morning they couldn't > remember what had happened the previous night. Has anyone else had > such an experience, with marijuana or any of the psychedelics? Sigh. Almost *any* substance that creates in the user a discrete change of consciousness will have this effect. The effect from marijuana is, as far as I have ever seen, purely psychological. People who learn good habits when "altered" almost never experience any loss of their STM (unless they *want* to ;). It's just that most people never properly learn to get their sea-legs. Without a useful framework for what they are experiencing, they find it hard to "remember" where they are, psychically speaking. A very gross analogy - if you were to put on a pair of prism glasses that inverted your visual field (ie turned everything upside down), people would notice that you seemed to be clumsy, hesitant and confused. You'd probably find it extremely difficult to tell exactly where you were or what you had just seen. Would it then be valid to say that the glasses had affected your memory and intelligence? I think not. After some time, you'd adjust and be able to get around quite well with the glasses (When you took them off you'd be back in the same pickle, though). If you were to repeat this experiment several times (as several people I know have), you would find that the adjustment-time after donning the glasses became shorter and shorter. Your brain learns to adopt the appropriate filter. The effect with psychotropics is similar, but requires a more conscious accomodation on the part of the user. It has been my experience that many people never learn how to see/hear/think effectively while in various altered states of consciousness, either because they enjoy the default experience sufficiently, or because no one has ever helped them to "stand up and look around". It is my opinion that this results in a lot of first-time or inexperienced users "falling down and skinning their knees", psychically speaking. Then they decide "Well, this is painful/confusing/weird, so its not for me." This is a shame. as most things worth doing require some effort. A lot of people would never have learned to ride a bike if they didn't use training wheels first, and then had someone run alongside to help them balance. Anton writes: >Pot notoriously impairs short-term memory -- as I said to Edgar at a party, >I had to look at him to make sure he was still there, because I couldn't >tell how long it was since I'd seen him last. There is *no* clinical evidence, after decades of attempts to find it, that the consumption of marijuana has *any* deleterious effects on the memory, intelligence, motivation or long-term health of the user. I'd welcome references from anyone who believes otherwise. Remember, it was only 40 years ago that marijuana was supposed to turn you into a raving sex-crazed psychotic. Now its supposed to make you a slobbering, forgetful do-nothing. Whatever preserves the status quo, my friends... - jeff fabi-something-or-other ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Dec 93 12:02:44 -0500 From: Jeff Fabijanic Subject: The Importance of Listening Mike P. writes: >Jeff comments: > >> Successful business people are often asked why they are so successful >> and they often respond that they *listen* to their customers. > >Not just useful in business, either. Pretty useful in relationships too. Oof - Don't I know it! Actually, I've recently been in the middle of a complicated relationship crisis with a friend. One of the things which has made reconciliation problematic (for me) is the fact that my friend has not felt comfortable with the level of emotion which occurs during some of our face-to-faces (jeff - emotional? Never! (well maybe a little)). He prefers to rely almost *entirely* on electronic communication as a means of discourse (we live in the same house). I find this very dissatisfying and ineffective. With words alone, it is too easy to misinterpret someone's emotional orientation. Too easy to read in sarcasm, or insincerity. And any feelings of satisfaction when the problem is resolved tend to be flat, emotionally speaking, compared to the immediate physical/emotional/psychic response one gets in live social interaction. The words "I'm sorry" mean magnitudes more to me (and, quite frankly - *from* me) when spoken and accompanied by a handshake or a hug. I understand the appeal of taking personal conflict to a "cleaner" medium. But when dealing with conflict resolution, I think that what often happens is that a significant amount of bandwidth is lost. As humans we have been writing for thousands of years, and it's no surprise that the elements of our knowledge which are thousands of years old are often best transmitted as writing. But we have been humans for *hundreds* of thousands of years, and I believe that spoken language has a direct line to parts of the human spirit which underlie much of our recent veneer of civilization. And as animals, physical contact is effective at levels many of us have all but lost conscious awareness of. It seems to me that it is very easy to write a believable falsity, more difficult to speak falsely to someone and have them believe you, and almost impossible to touch someone insincerely, and not have them know it. Comments, rebuts, advice all gladly received. - jeff ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Dec 93 16:46:38 GMT From: price@price.demon.co.uk (Michael Clive Price) Subject: Chillin' with the Transhumans Amara justly complains: > Folks, I urge you to re-read my previous message. Tim May > completely ignored the part where I said: > >> this is my *current* interpretation of what I wrote. And I must >> say the response was fantastic, and I've loved all of the topics >> that have come out of it. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > and he says: > > >Amara's last thread on this topic started a pretty good discussion, > >even if the women ultimately found it unsatisfying. > > *I* certainly didn't find it unsatisfying, and I don't recall too many > others who did either. I enjoyed it too. But then I'm not a women, so doubt Tim expected me have the great depth of intellect to appreciate it [insert deeply sarcastic and ironic smiley according to taste :-)]. IMO Tim's contributions would be improved if he preached less and listened more - but then we know that Tim disparages carefully considered responses, prefering immediate gut responses, by his own admission. IMO Tim's whole style only serves to show the inadequacies of his mode of "communication". Communication is mostly about listening *and showing this with feedback*, as any business course on communication and sales will affirm. Mike Price, who enjoys preaching too price@price.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Dec 93 09:08:21 -0800 From: freeman@maspar.com (Jay R. Freeman) Subject: Speed of evolution (was Human Language) Nancy Lebovitz says: > I would think that the thing most strongly selected for is the > willingness/ability to submit (at least superficially) to governments. I might make that a little broader. It seems clear that cooperation confers survival benefits in many human societies, as well as in societies of many non-human social animals. I can well imagine that groups of critters that did not cooperate effectively were selected against, and also that uncooperative individuals in basically cooperative groups were selected against. Hmn. I suspect most present Extropians would advocate cooperation via negotiation, contracts and market mechanisms. But certainly, many of the animals that demonstrate cooperation evolved that behavior without having the intellectual facilities for these mechanisms. And quite possibly cooperation arose in our own ancestors before they had such mechanism. (I don't suggest certainty, I merely note the presence of lots of not-too-bright cooperating primates. Present company excepted. :-) ) -- Jay Freeman ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1993 09:12:53 -0800 From: chip@netcom.com (Chip Morningstar -- "Software Without Moving Parts") Subject: NEURO: drugs and memory My short term memory is pretty bad even without chemical stimulation. This thread prompts me to ask if anyone knows of things which have the opposite effect, i.e., enhance short term memory. Seems plausible to me but none of the smart drug literature I've read seems to address this directly. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Chip Morningstar |"What were we talking about?" | | Electric Communities | | | 3339 Kipling, Palo Alto, CA 94306 | | | 415-856-1130 | | | chip@netcom.com | | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Dec 93 09:19:11 -0800 From: freeman@maspar.com (Jay R. Freeman) Subject: Extropian children Michael Clive Price comments: > [abuse of the word "birth" by me] I indeed meant "birth or hatching". > I'd be cautious about drawing conclusions from the way things turned out. No conclusions intended, beyond our presently being stuck with the way things did turn out. ("Presently" as in, "until we evolve/invent/ something else".) > Evolution seems full of branch points where chance plays a big part. Very true. -- Jay Freeman ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1993 09:52:50 -0800 From: dkrieger@netcom.com (Dave Krieger) Subject: VOUDON: The Eyes of Master Bates At 1:37 AM 12/17/93 +0000, nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu wrote: >I don't know who's doing the supposing on that one. I've done >some work on my vision (moderately myopic and a little astigmatic) >using the exercises from Janet Goodrich's _Natural Vision Improvement_ >(Bates and Reich, mostly), and gotten quite a noticable improvement, >though I never made it to 20/20. Lordy, not the Bates eye exercises again. Didn't we put a stake through that one's heart last year? Does Goodrich's book have a bibliography? I'd be interested in the cites for any articles in peer-reviewed journals that lend any credence to the Bates method. dV/dt ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Dec 93 18:55:48 GMT From: nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu Subject: VOUDON: The Eyes of Master Bates Dave Krieger writes: >At 1:37 AM 12/17/93 +0000, nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu wrote: >>I don't know who's doing the supposing on that one. I've done >>some work on my vision (moderately myopic and a little astigmatic) >>using the exercises from Janet Goodrich's _Natural Vision Improvement_ >>(Bates and Reich, mostly), and gotten quite a noticable improvement, >>though I never made it to 20/20. > >Lordy, not the Bates eye exercises again. Didn't we put a stake through >that one's heart last year? > >Does Goodrich's book have a bibliography? I'd be interested in the cites >for any articles in peer-reviewed journals that lend any credence to the >Bates method. It's got a bibliography (or at least a list of sources and recommended reading), but the nearest thing to what you're asking for seems to be Kelley, Charles R. 'Psychological Factors In Myopia'. J. Am. Optom. Assoc., 33(6): 833-837, 1967. This looks as though it might be interesting, but it probably isn't about Bates. There's a mention of a master's thesis (for graduation from UCLA) by Coralie La Salle about vision inprovement in 12 people who took a course from Goodrich. Nancy Lebovitz ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1993 12:06:31 -0800 (PST) From: tcmay@netcom.com (Timothy C. May) Subject: GUNS: (fwd) Suggested "commercial" I saw this in talk.politics.guns and thought you'd get a kick out of it. By the way, those BATF and/or FBI goons who killed Randy Weaver's wife with a high-power rifle as she cradled her baby are likely facing prosecution. Charges are being drawn up in Idaho, as admitted by the FBI Director, Louis Freeh. He says he expects some agents to be charged with first-degree murder in the death. And with manslaughter in the death of Weaver's son--who was shot as he attempted to defend himself on his father's property from masked goons who killed his dog and then fired at him. And Idaho still has the death penalty. --Tim From: speedy@engr.latech.edu (Speedy Mercer) Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns Subject: Suggested "commercial" Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1993 16:23:05 GMT Organization: Louisiana Tech University Distribution: usa Message-ID: Opening scene: A picture of a little girl in a pink frilley dress with pony-tails in her hair. Caption at the bottom reads: "This is how your Father sees you." Scene #2: A picture of a mature woman in a nice business outfit in a large corporate office with a picture of her family on her desk (her husband is a doctor). Caption at the bottom reads: "This is how your Mother sees you." Scene #3: A picture of a frightened looking woman looking out the window of a house with a big neon sign on the roof that says "Un-armed and defensless." Caption at the bottom reads: "This is how criminals will see you in the new administrations "Gun Free" society." Scene #4: A picture of a woman standing in the doorway of her home holding her baby in her arms. This is viewed through the cross-hairs of a rifle scope (the scope is centered on the woman's head). Caption at the bottom reads: "This is how the ATF and FBI sees you now." - I love my country but I fear my government. - ---=== DoD#8177(KotSFAQ) = Technician(Dr. Speed) .NOT. Student ===--- "Stop that or I shall have to hurt you." Pinkey and The Brain, Animaniacs ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1993 12:40:40 -0800 From: tribble@netcom.com (E. Dean Tribble) Subject: Holiday Greeting Heart disease and various forms of cancer come to mind. (Though George Hayflick, of "Hayflick limit" fame....number of cell divisions...claims eliminating _all_ cancer deaths would only increase the life expectancy for Americans by 2 years.) Yes. He gave a wonderful presentation at Xerox PARC a few months ago. The numers were similar for heart disease, etc. He also pointed out that most elderly (>= 60yr?) patients that die from one of these diseases have lots of the others, too. It's just a question of what gets them first. Thus, an80 yr old thatdies of a stroke probably has Alzheimers and several tumors.... These are all (to Hayflick) consequences of general loss of cell function, which is the real disease that they are suffering from. dean ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Dec 93 12:54:29 -0800 From: cappello@cs.ucsb.edu (Peter Cappello) Subject: Call for papers It would be delightful to see some extropian presence at the following conference. Despite its name (retained for historical reasons), the conference is not confined to array processors: Any application-specific computing system or methodology is potentially of interest. Pete ------------------------ cut here ------------------------- A S A P '94 INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE ON APPLICATION-SPECIFIC ARRAY PROCESSORS 22-24 August 1994 The Fairmont Hotel San Francisco Sponsored by the IEEE Computer Society ASAP'94 is an international conference on application- specific computing systems. This conference's lineage traces back to the First International Workshop on Systolic Arrays held in Oxford, England, in July 1986, and has con- tinued through the International Conference on Application- Specific Array Processors held in Venice, Italy, in Oct. 1993. Areas for application-specific computing systems are many and varied. Some samples areas follow: CAD tools; com- putational biology, chemistry, geology, pharmacology, phy- sics, and physiology; cryptography; data base, information retrieval, and compression; electronic commerce; high- performance networks; medical equipment; robotics and prosthetics; signal and image processing. Aspects of application-specific computing systems that are of interest include, but are not limited to: - Application-specific architectures - Application-specific fault tolerance strategies - Application-specific test & evaluation strategies - CAD tools for application-specific systems - Design methodology for application-specific systems - Special-purpose systems for fundamental algorithms - Implementation methodology & rapid prototyping - Standard hardware components & software objects - Systems software: languages, compilers, operating systems The conference will present a balanced technical pro- gram covering the theory and practice of application- specific computing systems. Of particular interest are con- tributions that either achieve large performance gains with application-specific computing systems, introduce novel architectural concepts, present formal and practical methods for the specification, design and evaluation of these sys- tems, analyze technology dependencies and the integration of hardware and software components, or describe and evaluate fabricated systems. The conference will feature an opening keynote address, technical presentations, a panel discussion, and poster presentations. One of the poster sessions is reserved for on-going projects and experimental systems. INFORMATION FOR AUTHORS Please send 5 copies of your double-spaced typed manuscript (maximum 5000 words) with an abstract to a Pro- gram Co-Chair. Your submission letter should indicate which of your paper's areas are most relevant to the conference, and which author is responsible for correspondence. Your paper should be unpublished and not under review for any other conference or workshop. The Proceedings will be published by the IEEE Computer Society Press. CALENDAR OF SIGNIFICANT EVENTS 18 Feb. Deadline for receipt of papers. 29 Apr. Notification of authors. 24 Jun. Deadline for receipt of photo-ready paper. 22 Aug. Conference begins. GENERAL CO-CHAIRS Prof. Earl E. Swartzlander, Jr. Prof. Benjamin W. Wah e.swartzlander@compmail.com wah@manip.crhc.uiuc.edu Electrical & Computer Engineering Coordinated Science Lab. University of Texas University of Illinois Austin, TX 78712 1308 West Main Street Urbana, IL 61801 (512) 471-5923 (217) 333-3516 (512) 471-5907 (Fax) (217) 244-7175 (Fax) PROGRAM CO-CHAIRS Prof. Peter Cappello Prof. Robert M. Owens cappello@cs.ucsb.edu owens@cse.psu.edu Computer Science Computer Science & Engineering University of California Pennsylvania State Univ. Santa Barbara, CA 93106 University Park, PA 16802 (805) 893-4383 (814) 865-9505 (805) 893-8553 (Fax) (814) 865-3176 (Fax) Please forward this Call to all interested parties. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Dec 93 16:15:58 EST From: Andy Wilson Subject: VOUDON: The Eyes of Master Bates Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1993 09:52:50 -0800 From: dkrieger@netcom.com (Dave Krieger) At 1:37 AM 12/17/93 +0000, nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu wrote: >I don't know who's doing the supposing on that one. I've done >some work on my vision (moderately myopic and a little astigmatic) >using the exercises from Janet Goodrich's _Natural Vision Improvement_ >(Bates and Reich, mostly), and gotten quite a noticable improvement, >though I never made it to 20/20. Lordy, not the Bates eye exercises again. Didn't we put a stake through that one's heart last year? Does Goodrich's book have a bibliography? I'd be interested in the cites for any articles in peer-reviewed journals that lend any credence to the Bates method. dV/dt That's quite a logical leap you're making. A lack of articles in peer reviewed journals supporting a theory means: No peer reviewed journal has published an article supporting the theory for one of several possible reasons, including: -no one wants to PAY for research on theory X, either because research proposals are not convincing, or there is no one with enough money interested in funding it -research on theory X is actively suppressed in the good-old-boy network -research on theory X has not reached a conclusive stage -or, possibly but not conclusively, theory X is bogus If it can be shown that even one person has improved their vision through exercises, that's enough to lend credence to that method. I have seen this in a former Tai Chi classmate. I don't need to see an article on it. Skepticism is very important, but it should not be a religious tenet. You can't "put a stake through that one's heart" by wishing it so. The only thing that can prove or disprove a hypothesis is experiment. Rhetoric does not qualify. Here's a scenario for you: what if only one person ever showed improved vision through exercises, and was in a large sample population of a study. Would the fact that their improvement was statistically insignificant make their eyes all of a sudden get worse? Check out RAW's The New Inquisition folks. Andy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1993 13:24:59 -0800 (PST) From: tcmay@netcom.com (Timothy C. May) Subject: Cancer (was "Holiday Greetings," ironically) Dean Tribble writes: (quoting me) > Heart disease and various forms of cancer come to mind. (Though George > Hayflick, of "Hayflick limit" fame....number of cell > divisions...claims eliminating _all_ cancer deaths would only increase > the life expectancy for Americans by 2 years.) > > Yes. He gave a wonderful presentation at Xerox PARC a few months ago. > The numers were similar for heart disease, etc. He also pointed out I was at that talk, last summer, and I recall the numbers as follows: Additional years of life if cancer deaths removed: 2 years Additional years of life if heart disease deaths removed: 10 years Quite a difference, suggesting the "War on Cancer" is somewhat of an overreaction (not if you yourself _get_ cancer, but that's another issue). > that most elderly (>= 60yr?) patients that die from one of these > diseases have lots of the others, too. It's just a question of what > gets them first. Thus, an80 yr old thatdies of a stroke probably has > Alzheimers and several tumors.... These are all (to Hayflick) > consequences of general loss of cell function, which is the real > disease that they are suffering from. And Hayflick says it appears that "wearout" in humans appears to happen at around age 100-110. That is, it's nearly the asymptotic limit for life (with fewer than 0.001% or somesuch living longer). This situation for humans, and probably for other mammals (though with differing numbers, of course), is not universal in all species. I was amazed to learn that reptiles other critters may live and grow larger essentially indefinitely, with predation, accidents, starvation, and specific diseases their ultimate killers. In a sense, most of these animals are "immortal," in that there is no ticking clock which tells them when to be "old" and when to die. (I'm not saying there's a clock in humans, cellular or otherwise, but there appears to be a pattern of an ever-escalating series of wearout mechanisms as age goes up past the century mark.) This may be correlated, Hayflick acknowledged, with reproductive strategies. The giant sea turtles and lizards that can live to be hundreds of years old can reproduce until they die, while humans and other mammals cannot (limited by the female egg system). (Conjecture: Why humans live 20 or more years past end of fertility at around age 40-45, for females, is related to raising of the last children. Lots of slop, here.) One could thus conjecture that little evolutionary advantage, in terms of differential reproduction, was conferred on mammals who lived long past their breeding period. Still, I gather that this remains an open question. --Tim May -- .......................................................................... Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA | black markets, collapse of governments. Higher Power: 2^756839 | Public Key: PGP and MailSafe available. Note: I put time and money into writing this posting. I hope you enjoy it. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1993 16:54:15 -0500 From: tburns@mason1.gmu.edu (T. David Burns) Subject: FWD: The Exchange >Date: Sun, 05 Dec 93 17:17:31 EST >From: "Daniel R. McCloskey". >Subject: The Exchange >To: libernet@Dartmouth.EDU > >_The Exchange_, North America's libertarian culture magazine, has a new >electronic bulletin board. The board includes discussion of libertarian >subjects, pop-culture, and rhetoric. It also seeks to serve the growing >network of libertarian publications, including subscription deals, text >versions of the lastest issues, calls for submissions, and editorials. > We invite all libertarian-leaning people interested in culture, reason >and style to subscribe. > >To subscribe write to xchange@univscvm.csd.scarolina.edu. The bulletin >board is run manually, so please include the word "subscribe" in your >subject line (to help our staff sort the mail). > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Daniel R. McCloskey For a sample issue | >Editor-in-Chief send $5 to 711 15th St.| >The Exchange: Culture Reason Style SE, Cedar Rapids, IA | >641 Henderson, #3 522403. Brian Czernik, | >Columbia, SC 29201 Managing Director. | >------------------------------------------------------------- > > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1993 14:01:22 -0800 From: tribble@netcom.com (E. Dean Tribble) Subject: Cancer (was "Holiday Greetings," ironically) Other things in the Hayflick talk: There is a repeating sequence at the tail of the DNA(?) of cells that seems to be used to terminate the reproduction of the DNA (or the RNA would fall off the end). Of this sequence (TTAAAGG, or some such, called Telemeraise, my hazy memory recalls), several (not a fixed number) copies of it get consumed in teh termination of the cell reproduction, so they get used up. When there are no longer enough to reliably terminate copying of the DNA, some other mechanism kicks in that somehow turns off reproduction for that cell (so that no more copies are ever started). He carefully pointed out thay don't know that this is the Hayflick limit counter. However, cells that never stop reproducing (there are several kinds in the human body) have some other part that continually adds theTeleraise sequence onto the end of the DNA so that reproduction can continue no matter how many copies are made. Many of the examples of creatures that don't have HAyflick limits are water creatures: sharks, fish, crocodiles, turtles, etc. One could postulate the obvious reason that size is much less of a restriction in water, and so the eveolutionary incentive to stop growing didn't exist. Hayflick carefully avoided postulating anything that they weren't real sure of. If you ever get a chance to hear him, I recommend it! dean ------------------------------ End of Extropians Digest V93 #350 *********************************