From extropians-request@extropy.org Mon Dec 13 11:23:05 1993 Return-Path: Received: from usc.edu by chaph.usc.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1+ucs-3.0) id AA12740; Mon, 13 Dec 93 11:23:01 PST Errors-To: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Received: from news.panix.com by usc.edu (4.1/SMI-3.0DEV3-USC+3.1) id AA00306; Mon, 13 Dec 93 11:22:56 PST Errors-To: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Received: by news.panix.com id AA07362 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for more@usc.edu); Mon, 13 Dec 1993 14:15:30 -0500 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1993 14:15:30 -0500 Message-Id: <199312131915.AA07362@news.panix.com> To: Extropians@extropy.org From: Extropians@extropy.org Subject: Extropians Digest X-Extropian-Date: December 13, 373 P.N.O. [19:14:28 UTC] Reply-To: extropians@extropy.org Errors-To: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Status: RO Extropians Digest Mon, 13 Dec 93 Volume 93 : Issue 346 Today's Topics: GUNS: Glocks & Target Practice [1 msgs] BOOK: The Nature of Rationality [1 msgs] Baby Killing Assault Rifles - Glock 17 [2 msgs] Brave New Extropia? No thanks. [1 msgs] Brave New Extropia? , Extropian children [2 msgs] Brave New Extropia? No Th [3 msgs] Brave New Extropia? No Thanks. [1 msgs] DRUGS/POLI: Resolution for drug policy reform [1 msgs] Extropian Anvil and Crucible, Open for Busyness [1 msgs] Forward: IR Remote Wristwatch Report [1 msgs] Humor: I am AC/DC! [1 msgs] Intelligent massage technology [1 msgs] LOGO/LEGO [2 msgs] Masks (Was: FNs) [1 msgs] Meta: How has seen the Line eater> [1 msgs] POLITICS: The Polly Klaas Bill [1 msgs] The Importance of Reading [1 msgs] baby massage [1 msgs] work and slavery [1 msgs] work and slavery (and children) [1 msgs] Administrivia: No admin msg. Approximate Size: 52187 bytes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1993 22:25:32 -0800 (PST) From: tcmay@netcom.com (Timothy C. May) Subject: Brave New Extropia? No Th Duncan Frissell writes: > > B > Also, this list has very rigid rules; newcomers are challenged, > B >criticized, and sometimes ridiculed if they do not conform. > > I was not challanged, criticized, or ridiculed when I joined the list in > February 1992. Of course since I was already an anarcho capitalist... > Ditto for me. I joined the list in early July 1992 and made my first post three weeks later (the firs 3 weeks I spend watching, to get a feel for the tenor of the list....maybe some would count that as being brainwashed :-} ). My impression is that thoughtful and stimulating remarks are rarely criticized or ridiculed, though they certainly are often _challenged_. This list is mostly a discussion group, a "salon." It is not a mutual emotional support group (this is not just one man's opinion...check out "Extropy" or the "Welcome" message for a description of the list's primary raison d'etre). The remarks that usually get blasted the most seem to be the ones that are either truly off-the-wall or seem to be intended to insult the List audience. --Tim May -- .......................................................................... Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA | black markets, collapse of governments. Higher Power: 2^756839 | Public Key: PGP and MailSafe available. Note: I put time and money into writing this posting. I hope you enjoy it. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Dec 93 6:22:30 GMT From: starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu Subject: GUNS: Glocks & Target Practice I got to try out a Glock w/ a "New York Trigger" last time out at the shooting range, and I agree that the trigger pull was too heavy. I got to shoot a Ruger .22 semi-auto today, and it had the best trigger pull I've found yet from any gun. Very smooth, light, but not too much of a hair-trigger. Now to find it in a larger caliber! Novelties at the range today: We (Anton, Sameer, and non-list people) also got to shoot an AK-47, M-14 AR-15, my .22 and a Smith&Wesson .22 revolver. Now I gotta go get another case of ammo from the nice store with all the goodies to ogle and window-shop for. Darn. But at least I figured out what I want for Christmas: earmuff/headphone style ear protection to go along with my plugs. Tim Starr - Renaissance Now! Assistant Editor: Freedom Network News, the newsletter of ISIL, The International Society for Individual Liberty, 1800 Market St., San Francisco, CA 94102 (415) 864-0952; FAX: (415) 864-7506; 71034.2711@compuserve.com Think Universally, Act Selfishly - starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1993 23:23:50 -0800 From: kwatson@netcom.com (Kennita Watson) Subject: Brave New Extropia? , Extropian children It's entirely plausible that Caesarian new-borns could benefit from some heavy duty massage, but I'd rather bet on a person doing it well than a machine. I'd guess a human would get worried about squeezing the baby too hard, and thus do a less thorough job than a properly-calibrated machine. Also, a person would have a harder time squeezing the baby from all sides at once. Kennita ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1993 23:40:50 -0800 From: jamie@netcom.com (Jamie Dinkelacker) Subject: Extropian Anvil and Crucible, Open for Busyness ? I started reading the Extropian list sometime during the summer of '92, after becoming intrigued by some of Dave Krieger's ideas. About a month later I posted my first message which got scorched by someone who I've not seen post again. After that it's been give and take. All in all, it's been good for me ... hopefully it's good for you! At times this list is an anvil or a crucible, othertimes it is free association or random neural firings. Nevertheless, what appeals to me most is that it is a list of communication and interaction. And I'm glad you're all here! Thanks. -- ................................ Jamie Dinkelacker Palo Alto CA Jamie@netcom.com 415.941.4782 ................................ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1993 23:42:17 -0800 From: kwatson@netcom.com (Kennita Watson) Subject: Brave New Extropia? No Thanks. The most distressing conflict I ever have had with a list member came when I heard him drawing lines between "mere humans" and himself, and when pressed, he said he no longer considered himself human. Well, wishing doesn't make it so. This reminds me of when I go to science fiction conventions and meet people who seem genuinely convinced that they are elves, or members of a Darkover Tower, or whatever. Since I know that "It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into" (Jonathan Swift), I can only look on, amused and sad at the same time. I hope that this not many Extropians have this attitude towards "mere humanity". How can we use our humanity to its full potential, to propel ourselves towards something more, when we feel contempt for it? In a woman's dream of Utopia, less is written about the technology, and more on how we fill our lives with meaning and warmth ... Bravo! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1993 23:47:50 -0800 From: kwatson@netcom.com (Kennita Watson) Subject: Meta: How has seen the Line eater> We (Ray and I) have yet to actually see a line that has been eaten. We would like to fix the problem (if it really exists) but cannot until someone sends ray the message (& mesg #) that has a line that has been eaten... I suggest that anyone who has had a message eaten change their mail parameters so that they save a copy of every outgoing message until the problem gets solved. Kennita ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Dec 93 00:08:36 -0800 From: Romana Machado Subject: Masks (Was: FNs) In the future there will be a shop in the mall that makes instant Action Figures with your likeness. Romana ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1993 10:58:54 +0000 (GMT) From: Charlie Stross Subject: POLITICS: The Polly Klaas Bill Craig Presson writes: >In <9312091542.aa03008@ruddles.sco.com>, Charlie Stross writes: >|> cpresson writes: >|> >In <9312081619.aa25116@ruddles.sco.com>, Charlie Stross writes: >|> >[...] >|> I thought the tabled proposal was, 3rd violent felony, you're executed. >|> > I'm sure some of the proponents would like that better, >but it'll never pass. >|> Something wrong with my reading comprehension there. Damn. >Prob'ly an overload condition. Have your to-do list examined by a >competent stress analyst. Yurp. My load average is WAY too high. So I'm going to ::exclude all for a cooling-off period (and to get myself back down to a normal level of preoccupation -- and do some real reading!). Doesn't mean I won't be back, but I won't be reading the list for a while -- maybe a week, possibly until the new year. (Got only seven days left in the office until January 4th, anyway.) Here's a parting shot for those of you who find the list bandwidth wearisome: There's a mail/newsreader for DOS that may interest you. It's called cppnews, it's in beta test at present, and it can be found in some subdirectory (probably called cppnews) on ftp.demon.co.uk:/pub/ibmpc. I use cppnews as a front-end for my TCP/IP news and mail feed at home. It's got a CUA interface, customizable keystrokes and menu items, full threading, and search capabilities. I haven't used it for the extropians list so far, but it should be very good indeed if you want to read the list on a DOS box. The main reason is that it has the habit of threading everything -- including email. So an extropians account on a cppnews installation should treat the list just like a newsgroup, making it much easier to handle our long threads. If anyone wants a copy (and doesn't have ftp) drop me a line. -- Charlie -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Charlie Stross is charless@sco.com, charlie@antipope.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1993 08:04:34 -0500 From: pcm@world.std.com (Peter C. McCluskey) Subject: work and slavery Dani Eder writes: > Please give me a reference for your claim of a 3-4% historical return > on investments. I will give you some data on the rental house Some figures I happen to have handy for historical returns: average AAA Corp. bond yield 1920-1987: 5.5% average DJIA dividend yield + dividend growth rate 1920-1987: 8.9% average annual CPI increase 1920-1987: 2.6% average S&P 500 dividend yield + capital gains 1928-1993: 9.8% So the typical return on investment seems to be in the 3-7% range, although even with data that are this extensive and representative there is room for subjective choices. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter McCluskey >>> pcm@world.std.com >> pcm@macgreg.com >> pcm@cs.brown.edu ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Dec 93 13:10:14 GMT From: nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu Subject: LOGO/LEGO Simon writes: >Mitch Resnick's group at the MIT Media lab have been using >Logo/Lego in Boston-area schools for quite some time. I'm glad to hear that LOGO/LEGO's in use. Have you heard whether it's going to go commercial? People were talking about possible new enterprises. LOGO/LEGO (or an equivalent system?) seems like one of them. Nancy Lebovitz ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1993 08:33:48 -0500 (EST) From: Harry Shapiro Subject: Humor: I am AC/DC! I am AC/DC... that's Anarcho Capitalist /with Digital Cash /hawk -- Harry S. Hawk habs@extropy.org Electronic Communications Officer, Extropy Institute Inc. The Extropians Mailing List, Since 1991 EXTROPY -- A measure of intelligence, information, energy, vitality, experience, diversity, opportunity, and growth. EXTROPIANISM -- The philosophy that seeks to increase extropy. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1993 08:41:51 -0500 (EST) From: Harry Shapiro Subject: LOGO/LEGO a conscious being, nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu wrote: > I'm glad to hear that LOGO/LEGO's in use. Have you heard whether > it's going to go commercial? It is out there. I have seen it being sold at MacWorld shows. I think several companies sell the Logo part. /hawk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Dec 93 14:00:26 GMT From: nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu Subject: Brave New Extropia? No Th Tim May writes: > >Duncan Frissell writes: > (we've lost an attribution here) >> >> B > Also, this list has very rigid rules; newcomers are challenged, >> B >criticized, and sometimes ridiculed if they do not conform. >> >> I was not challanged, criticized, or ridiculed when I joined the list in >> February 1992. Of course since I was already an anarcho capitalist... >> > >Ditto for me. I joined the list in early July 1992 and made my first >post three weeks later (the firs 3 weeks I spend watching, to get a >feel for the tenor of the list....maybe some would count that as being >brainwashed :-} ). I didn't experience anything that I'd remotely call hazing when I joined. On the other hand, I'm in substantial agreement with the list about most things. > >My impression is that thoughtful and stimulating remarks are rarely >criticized or ridiculed, though they certainly are often _challenged_. >This list is mostly a discussion group, a "salon." It is not a mutual >emotional support group (this is not just one man's opinion...check >out "Extropy" or the "Welcome" message for a description of the list's >primary raison d'etre). > >The remarks that usually get blasted the most seem to be the ones that >are either truly off-the-wall or seem to be intended to insult the >List audience. > However, your initial "what is all this discussion of shoes'n'tubs doing on extropians" post left me feeling as though I was an awful person who was spoiling everyone else's fun--I don't know how much my feelings affected the way I later handled the thread, but I bet that they made some difference. Nancy Lebovitz ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Dec 93 14:14:00 GMT From: nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu Subject: Brave New Extropia? , Extropian children Kennita Watson writes, answering me: > > It's entirely plausible that Caesarian new-borns could benefit > from some heavy duty massage, but I'd rather bet on a person > doing it well than a machine. > >I'd guess a human would get worried about squeezing the baby >too hard, and thus do a less thorough job than a properly-calibrated >machine. Also, a person would have a harder time squeezing the baby >from all sides at once. Interesting point. My guess it that a very small amount of education-- *this* is how much pressure is applied in the birth canal, demonstrated on the massager's hands--would be enough to convince people to press hard enough, especially if they'd seen births and observed that the babies end up ok. Your other point is plausible, but might be answered by a team of massagers. A lot of my doubts about using a machine come from having tried a floor-sander covered with carpet fomassage, not to mention various motorized chairs and beds. I find that the kind of "massage" they offer is clearly inferior to what even an inept human can do, and becomes irritating fairly quickly. Admittedly, it might be possible to invent better automated massage, but I haven't seen it. Actually, it's an interesting question--computers can defeat most people at chess, but when are they going to be able to compete on backrubs? Nancy Lebovitz ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Dec 93 09:47:35 EST From: cfrye@ciis.mitre.org (Curtis D. Frye) Subject: The Importance of Reading James Baker said: >I agree that writing is one of the major inventions of all time and in fact >very cool but what about _talking_? My read of pre-history says that for >most of our 6 million year humanoid existence we didn't have verbal >communications and lived pretty much like other mammals. > >Then around say, 200,000 years ago human evolution took a turn quite >different from the evolution of say dogs and sheep; (ie. agriculture, fire, >cities, trade....) My guess is that the invention of spoken language was >the reason. > >As an interesting footnote our vocal tracts, not our intelligence may be >the reason that we're homo-sapiens, not Neanderthals. One theory of pre-speech is that an ancestor of homo sapiens, called homo melodens, used "singing" to communicate. Most likely, this "singing" consisted of vowels that varied in intensity and often reflected natural sound. Consonants. The more advanced sounds (glides like "l" and "r", bilabials like "p" etc.) would have come along later. -- Best regards, Curtis D. Frye cfrye@ciis.mitre.org "If you think I speak for MITRE, I'll tell you how much they pay me and make you feel foolish." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Dec 93 08:11:56 -0800 From: freeman@maspar.com (Jay R. Freeman) Subject: Intelligent massage technology Nancy Lebovitz comments on the inferiority of automated massage [...] A friend of mine has for about five years had a rather expensive massage chair manufactured by -- I think -- Panasonic. I'm not a regular recipient of massage from humans, so I can't do a real comparison, but in absolute terms, the chair is good enough that I enjoy sitting in it for half an hour or more, and when it's time to get up I am so relaxed that it is difficult to do so. The chair has two massage heads (possibly rollers or casters of some sort) that move about under the back panel - that which supports you from lower hips to neck as you recline. They work in and out from positions just outboard of the spine to 10 or 15 cm further out, and also move up and down (in the direction parallel to the spine). A simple hand-held control panel allows selection of several patterns of motion, and allows adjustment of the position and limits of motion of the heads. There is also a tilt-up foot supporter with a vibrator built-in. This device was rather expensive when purchased -- about $1000, I recall. -- Jay Freeman ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Dec 93 11:11:54 EST From: eli@suneast.east.sun.com (Elias Israel - SunSelect Engineering) Subject: Baby Killing Assault Rifles - Glock 17 Edgar Swank writes: > While at the store, I tried a Glock 17 which I thought was one of the > handguns Amara recommended (she actually recommended the 19). It is > lighter than my Colt .38 Super and holds 17 rounds, which is great. > But I didn't like the trigger mechanism. It requires pulling the > trigger to cock the hammer, making for a fairly long trigger pull. > This is OK for getting off a quick shot at point-blank range, but I > prefer the crisper trigger action of releasing an already-cocked > hammer if I need to aim, such as is available on my Colt. I recently learned a little more about the Glock's "Safety Action" that makes me worry about it a bit. As many here already know, the Glock isn't a traditional DA/SA semi-automatic. Rather than having a hammer and firing pin, it has a sort of "dart" inside that gets sprung back and launched at the primer cup. Apparently, the trigger pull on the Glock is fairly light, up until the last 1/16th of an inch or so, where it gets slightly stiffer. That's the last part of the pull, just before the dart is released to strike the primer cup. If you release the trigger at that point, the system does NOT reset. Consequently, pulling the trigger 1/16th of an inch will release the dart and fire the gun. That fact would make me concerned about accidental discharges, or worse yet, about the claim of accidental discharges being raised in court should I have to use the weapon. (Of course, if you want to protect yourself from that claim, some people suggest getting a DA-only weapon in the first place.) Any Glock owners want to comment? Elias Israel eli@east.sun.com HEx: E ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1993 08:44:03 -0800 From: dasher@netcom.com (D. Anton Sherwood) Subject: DRUGS/POLI: Resolution for drug policy reform Is this the Hoover Resolution? > Whereas, [sic] the huge untaxed revenues generated by the illicit drug > trade are undermining legitimate governments world-wide; ... What bogosity! I am shocked to see the likes of Milton Friedman buy into the myth that one personUs earnings harm another. -- Anton Sherwood *\\* +1 415 267 0685 *\\* DASher@netcom.com Bureau of Making Sure You Get Enough Sleep and Eat Your Vegetables Disclaimer: The above is likely to refer to anecdotal evidence. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1993 12:04:16 -0500 (EST) From: Harry Shapiro Subject: Forward: IR Remote Wristwatch Report a conscious being, Scott Coleman wrote: > From o-intelhouse@dlb.com Mon Dec 13 01:53:38 1993 > Message-Id: > From: tmkk@uiuc.edu (Scott Coleman) > To: @panix.com:o-intelhouse@dlb.com > Cc: @panix.com:tmkk@uiuc.edu > Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1993 07:53:38 -0600 > Subject: IR Remote Wristwatch Report > X-L2L: dlb.com > Precedence: bulk > Errors-To: o-intelhouse@dlb.com > > > Well, I went and picked up one of the Casio IR Wrist Controller Watches. > Although I haven't done any sort of exhaustive testing, my initial > impressions are that it works well and has reasonable range. As many of > you surmised, it's a pre-programmed unit with various manufacturers' > codes stored in ROM, not a "learning" remote. This worked out fine for > me, since it not only speaks the IR language of my SO's RCA TV (for > which the real remote is now dead) but it also knows SIRCS for my > Sony equipment. The watch has 8 buttons: Power, TV/VCR, Stop and Play > along the right side of the face, and CH -, VOL -, VOL +, and CH + along > the bottom. Both sets of buttons are dual function, and there is a > select button on the upper left which toggles the watch between TV and > VCR control modes. You can set different manufacturer codes for the TV > and VCR, so you can use it with your Sony TV and your Mitsubishi VCR > withiout having to reset manufacturer codes all the time. The unit knows > about 40 different protocol variations, with maybe a dozen different > manufacturers represented. Some manufacturers have more than one code; > e.g. Sony has 3 codes - one is for the SIRCS TV device ID, one is for > the VTR3 device ID, and I presume the third is VTR1 (although I haven't > verified this yet). > > The performance of the Casio is more than adequate. I had no problems > getting my A/V equipment to receive and recognize the signals sent by > the watch, even when the watch wasn't aimed directly at the equipment. > The buttons are larger than the typical calculator buttons, but still > relatively small and close together, making some of the interior ones > hard to press without pressing nearby buttons. Long fingernails or a > small pointed object makes pressing them easier. > > Incidentally, the remainder of the watch is pretty vanilla as far as > digital watches go - your basic time, day and date are displayed, and > there is a simple stopwatch mode which times to the nearest second only. > The watch is somewhat larger than the standard (due primarily to the > extra buttons) but it's very lightweight and comfortable. In short, I'd > recommend this unit to any Home Automator who's into IR control of the > HA system. One of these watches, combined with a Radio Shaft/Sharp IR > receiver module in every room, would make a nearly ideal input system - > at least until Star Trek voice input becomes reliable. > > > -- > Scott Coleman, President ASRE (American Society of Reverse Engineers) > Ed Green Fan Club #005 - Impeach the SGA!! > tmkk@uiuc.edu > > -- Harry S. Hawk habs@extropy.org Electronic Communications Officer, Extropy Institute Inc. The Extropians Mailing List, Since 1991 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1993 09:24:35 -0800 From: Brian D Williams Subject: baby massage In response to Kennita and Nancy's comments about baby massage; I have a book (at home unfortunately) that was written by Frederick Leboyer. Its subtitle is "The traditional art of Indian(as in India) baby massage." I could check it tonight and provide ISBN etc if anyone is interested. I can tell you from years of casual experience at it that babies, like most other humans, benefit greatly from massage. Their is some evidence that babies who suffer from "failure to thrive" have been helped in this way. Never underestimate the power of TLC. Brian Williams Extropian Cypherpatriot Giver of fine backrubs since 1977 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1993 09:50:13 -0800 (PST) From: tcmay@netcom.com (Timothy C. May) Subject: Brave New Extropia? No Th Two items here, one a point of agreement with Nancy Lebovitz, and the other a point of disagreement. She writes: > Tim May writes: > > > >Duncan Frissell writes: > > > (we've lost an attribution here) Yes, many posters these days are skipping attributions completely, counting on our short-term memories (I suppose) to let us figure out who said what. Or, using initials ("B >") to remind us. I suggest that if someone is worth quoting in a message, they're worth mentioning by name. (My own software does not automatically add "foo said" attributions, so I have to add it manually.) But then Nancy goes on to unfairly characterize my ironic remarks as being critical of the Extropians list: > However, your initial "what is all this discussion of shoes'n'tubs > doing on extropians" post left me feeling as though I was an awful > person who was spoiling everyone else's fun--I don't know how much > my feelings affected the way I later handled the thread, but I > bet that they made some difference. I can find no such comment in my archives, but I _did_ locate an ironic comment that I included at the end of a very long and detailed discussion of the thermodynamics of hot tubs (which discussion showed I was not "dissing" the subject per se). I said, in this final paragraph: "None of these points is to say that better insulated bath tubs would not be a good, or saleable thing. A ceramic or porcelain tub with integeral insulation could be a hot seller. I would not be at all surprises to find out that luxury tubs are already insulated. "It is interesting and revealing to see that ubermensch Extropians like ourselves are debating shoes and bath tubs with such vigor." (I included the paragraph before it to remind readers of my detailed conclusions.) Methinks Nancy is confusing me with someone else. --Tim May -- .......................................................................... Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA | black markets, collapse of governments. Higher Power: 2^756839 | Public Key: PGP and MailSafe available. Note: I put time and money into writing this posting. I hope you enjoy it. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1993 10:02:29 -0800 (PST) From: tcmay@netcom.com (Timothy C. May) Subject: Baby Killing Assault Rifles - Glock 17 Elias Israel writes: > I recently learned a little more about the Glock's "Safety Action" that > makes me worry about it a bit. As many here already know, the Glock isn't > a traditional DA/SA semi-automatic. Rather than having a hammer and firing > pin, it has a sort of "dart" inside that gets sprung back and launched at > the primer cup. > > Apparently, the trigger pull on the Glock is fairly light, up until the last > 1/16th of an inch or so, where it gets slightly stiffer. That's the last > part of the pull, just before the dart is released to strike the primer > cup. If you release the trigger at that point, the system does NOT reset. > Consequently, pulling the trigger 1/16th of an inch will release the dart > and fire the gun. That fact would make me concerned about accidental This is not correct. If I understand the point here correctly, it is that the Glock "cocks" (to use conventional language) on the first pull of the trigger and then remains cocked. This is not so. The long pull of the trigger does prepare the gun for firing, but if the gun is not fired and the trigger is relaxed, the gun goes back to the state it was in before the trigger was first pulled. In a sense, it is "decocked" (though the term means different things for different guns). I've owned a Glock 17 since 1986, one of the first batches imported into the U.S., and I've fired it many times. The Glock is definitely not set to "hair trigger" by casually pulling the trigger part way. I hope this clarifies things. --Tim May > Any Glock owners want to comment? Needless to say, I think the Glock is a fine gun. I've also recently looked at the new H & K "USP" and it seems nice, especially as it was designed from the git-go for the .40 S & W round. It also has lots of variants for left-handed shooters, for different kinds of safeties, etc. It may be too confusing for most folks. If concealability is an issue, I again recommend either a Glock 19, the slightly shorter version of their 9mm, or some form of .380, such as the Walther/Interarms, the KDI clones of the Walther, the SIG P230, etc. The .380 is not much of a cartridge, but with a good load and for the intended purpose, it is likely enough. --Tim May -- .......................................................................... Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA | black markets, collapse of governments. Higher Power: 2^756839 | Public Key: PGP and MailSafe available. Note: I put time and money into writing this posting. I hope you enjoy it. ------------------------------ Date: 13 Dec 93 13:05:53 EST From: Reilly Jones <70544.1227@compuserve.com> Subject: Brave New Extropia? No thanks. >From Elizabeth Schwartz: This is an excellent book still. I recommend it to men as well as women for basic insights into how things really work. I have never taken anything in the business world or the net world as personal; other motivations, impersonal if you will, are at work. Personal attacks are, well, personal. They involve people who know you well in person who are trying to harm you and your relationships with your friends and family. Very ugly. AGH! No more Utopias please! Not even in our dreams. Utopias, ugh. They are a sure fire way to bad trouble or irrelevancy. I, too, would like to focus on meaning and warmth. I also like technology. Maybe warm, meaningful technology? Meaningful technological warmth? Technologically warm meaning? ------------------------------------------------------------------ Reilly Jones | Philosophy of Technology: 70544.1227@CompuServe.COM | The rational and moral foundations | of our will to create ------------------------------ Date: 13 Dec 93 13:06:11 EST From: Reilly Jones <70544.1227@compuserve.com> Subject: work and slavery (and children) I "retired" two years ago at age 38 through hard work, and lucky stocks. Count me in with Edgar Swank and Tim May. I am assuming an 8.5% long-term return. With the 30-yr bond at 6.25% now and the stock market around 8%, this is not a bad number. The long bonds have been over 8% for a decade and the stock market has averaged around 14% during the same period. The main thing to do, is stick with the market, including international markets. Have enough to act as a cushion when months like Oct. 1987 come around. Regarding the original discussion of the thread about work and slavery, I know why people work. People work for money. Period. People are motivated by money. Period. If you are not working for money, it's not called work. It's different. The real question is not why people work, but what they use money for. There lies deep motivation. If this were Family Feud, the top answer would be "I work so that I don't have to eat dog food when I'm old." People use money first for consumptive needs, then for creation. Money used for consumption falls under neo-classical economic theory of supply and demand and marginal utility. The fourth pizza just isn't as satisfying as the first. Consumption is everything we "need" for breathing, shelter, health, food, warmth, social status, etc. - the fiscal expression of our genetic and epigenetic homeostatic values. Consumption includes money wasted. Our consumptive budget has a certain amount of elasticity. Everyone needs a base amount to survive, beyond that, socially derived internal values help us to set budgets for consumptive expenditures. After our consumptive needs are met, every dollar beyond that can be utilized for creative purposes as we will it. Creation can be art, literature, starting a business, making a product, having children, anything that leads to the creation of the new, particularly if it promotes more spontaneous order generation in society. The neo-classical rules for money spent in creation do not clearly apply. We need better economic theory in this area. There is no marginal utility of money beyond consumptive needs because each additional dollar spent on creation could unpredictably lead to whole new economies around new goods and services. This lack of marginal utility is the best argument for a flat tax on consumption of goods and services and the elimination of the graduated income tax (which is perverse in removing creative dollars from the society). I have a 6th grader, a 3rd grader and a two-year old. All boys. I've been married 21 years of non-stop bliss (every nanosecond). Putting energy into raising a family is very hard but very rewarding. Like any complex biological open-system, the more ordering energy put into the system, the more likelihood of very interesting higher levels of spontaneous order blossom. The thousands of diapers I've changed, floors swept over and over, toys picked up, teeth brushed, clothes cleaned, homework battles, etc. have given me an appreciation of how difficult order really is; especially when you can't fire the group of stubborn, individualistic, self-willed smarty-boots (they sound Extropian don't they?). Building a more complex, higher civilization starts with the family and requires members of the society to place equal weight on their individual brain and their social brain as well as balancing doing with thinking. Sentiments that diminish the role of family and children in society are very entropic. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Reilly Jones | Philosophy of Technology: 70544.1227@CompuServe.COM | The rational and moral foundations | of our will to create ------------------------------ Date: 13 Dec 93 13:06:21 EST From: Reilly Jones <70544.1227@compuserve.com> Subject: BOOK: The Nature of Rationality >From Steve Witham: and A "simplicity value" has importance. I look at not just the mistake-making costs but at the reversibility of mistakes. This "reversibility factor" is one of the key elements of judging the importance of a decision. There is a definite, complex time-dependent factor in decision-making. While some complex decisions are complex because they involve many people's actions over the immediate time frame, most decisions are complex because their consequences stretch into the difficult-to-predict future. Small errors in predicting people's future values can lead to very bad big decisions. The "simplicity value" has something to do with keeping decision time-frames fairly short, generally a suboptimal situation. Keeping things simple is like holding T-bills instead of futures options. The risk-reward matrix is difficult to escape. After you've negotiated with yourself, you must test your moral values in the larger society to see how they work. Morality is the social bonds of individuals. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Reilly Jones | Philosophy of Technology: 70544.1227@CompuServe.COM | The rational and moral foundations | of our will to create ------------------------------ End of Extropians Digest V93 #346 *********************************