From extropians-request@extropy.org Tue Dec 7 07:44:30 1993 Return-Path: Received: from usc.edu by chaph.usc.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1+ucs-3.0) id AA13816; Tue, 7 Dec 93 07:44:28 PST Errors-To: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Received: from news.panix.com by usc.edu (4.1/SMI-3.0DEV3-USC+3.1) id AA18884; Tue, 7 Dec 93 07:44:19 PST Errors-To: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Received: by news.panix.com id AA07961 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for more@usc.edu); Tue, 7 Dec 1993 10:37:57 -0500 Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1993 10:37:57 -0500 Message-Id: <199312071537.AA07961@news.panix.com> To: Extropians@extropy.org From: Extropians@extropy.org Subject: Extropians Digest X-Extropian-Date: December 7, 373 P.N.O. [15:37:12 UTC] Reply-To: extropians@extropy.org Errors-To: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Status: RO Extropians Digest Tue, 7 Dec 93 Volume 93 : Issue 340 Today's Topics: Brave New Extropia? No Thanks. [6 msgs] Claudia Schiffer [1 msgs] Jay O'C.'s uploads and straw men... [1 msgs] META: Decline and Fall of the Extropians List? [2 msgs] Neuromantics [1 msgs] POLITICS: The Polly Klaas Bill [1 msgs] SOC/LEGAL: Marriage, licenses [1 msgs] TECH: Flourescent/Incandescent lighting query [1 msgs] TECH: Fluorescent/Incandescent lighting query, CHEAP FIX [1 msgs] The Decline and Fall of the Extropians List [1 msgs] VIRTSEM: VIRTBIZ [1 msgs] subjective time [1 msgs] work and slavery [2 msgs] Administrivia: No admin msg. Approximate Size: 53821 bytes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1993 20:28:05 -0500 (CDT) From: the Gozarian Subject: Neuromantics Hello all...(a lurker sticks his head out for a moment) I was hoping that someone could direct me to a seller of "smart" drugs and life- extenders that is reliable, and recommend the chemicals that they have had the most satisfaction with. Naturally, I'd like to keep the prices within reason, being a poor college student and all, but I'll take reliability of the source over a cheapo outfit. Noticed from some previous posts that a few of the folks on here were users of these chemicals themselves, and I was hoping for some recommendations and ad- vice. Thanx Brad L. Ferguson "True chaos is simply infinite order." bradferguson@dlu.edu --me ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1993 18:40:19 -0800 (PST) From: tcmay@netcom.com (Timothy C. May) Subject: Brave New Extropia? No Thanks. Mike Price writes: > Nancy's not the only one revolted. I find this a strange comment by > Tim. Nancy was commenting about Tim's original observation that women > are often mystified by rhetorical behaviour of men who can't admit to > being wrong in an argument. Whilst Tim's observation is true (many men > (and women) _are_ incapable of admitting they're wrong) and this seems > a basic rule in politics I thought when I first read Tim's piece that > this was just a sad observation. So I am surprised to see that Tim is > apparently endorsing this practice. Perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps Tim is > _not_ endorsing this practice. Please clarify. Whether I endorse it or not, it is a true statement that many males I know, including myself, practice this behavior: * argue with all one's energies with the opponent, debating style. Concede very few points. * if the points made by the opponent are lousy one, forget them. * if the points made by the opponent are good one, and he is in fact basically right, use the arguments as your own. Now there are cases where even I concede points, or even the total argument, whilst it is in progress: - with long-term friends, with whom I have a casual and non-dominance-seeking relationship, I'll say "Yeah, good point. You're right." By "dominance-seeking" I mean the folks who _gloat_ and _smirk_ when you say you were wrong. Little boys learn early on that to concede defeat to these dominance-seekers is the verbal equivalent of rolling on your back and baring your throat, i.e., submission. Amongst friends, who don't seek this dominance, admitting mistakes is OK. Women are often more willing to admit mistakes, perhaps because of a) chronic low self-esteem (don't flame _me_...this is widely reported), and b) fewer women go in for the kill when a weakness is admitted. For example, on this List, I have no problem admitting mistakes--not that I ever make them, of course--to, for example, Nick Szabo, because I've hung out with Nick long enough that we each know the strengths and weaknesses of the other. I genuineley value Nick's advice on technical issues and wouldn't consider any admission of some technical weakness on my part to then be used against me in a dominance game. You see, this is not _really_ an issue of "dominance," as in the "alpha male" theories, but rather a case of not giving strangers and possible enemies any ammunition. For example, I would not have given ESR (if you don't know who this is, ignore this) any "satisfaction" by admitting mistakes, because his modus operandi was to seized on what the thought were logcial flaws and then use this to bray and bellow that he was the cyberstud of all time. Ha! I think women are somewhat the same, but different. My sister, for example, is wildly greagarious with total strangers and will be telling her life story, complete with admissions of screwups, to someone she's just met in a bus station. Not so with me, or with my brother, or most men I know. > Amara asked earlier, I believe, about what styles of communication we > find persuasive. Simple: I listen to people who listen to me. Who show > signs of accepting what I have said or who surprise me with new > information or disabuse me of cherished notions. Someone who can't > admit to being wrong I label as a shit and try to avoid. I hope this makes clear what I meant about not admitting to be wrong, and in what circumstances this applies. --Tim May -- .......................................................................... Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA | black markets, collapse of governments. Higher Power: 2^756839 | Public Key: PGP and MailSafe available. Note: I put time and money into writing this posting. I hope you enjoy it. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Dec 93 16:09:34 EST From: eli@suneast.east.sun.com (Elias Israel - SunSelect Engineering) Subject: TECH: Fluorescent/Incandescent lighting query, CHEAP FIX Here's a cheap fix for the flourescent lighting problem for those who are bother by that kind of lighting in their offices: One can usually get, for around $50, a halogen floor lamp that will easily light a small- to medium-sized office. Install one of those and turn off the nasty flourescent lighting and you should see quite an improvement. I don't do this myself (I'm not particularly bothered by the flourescents, though I definitely prefer the warmer lighting that halogens provide) but I have seen it done and it works quite nicely. Elias Israel eli@east.sun.com HEx: E ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1993 18:56:21 -0800 (PST) From: tcmay@netcom.com (Timothy C. May) Subject: Brave New Extropia? No Thanks. Steve Witham casts the discussion between Nancy L. and me as a kind of sporting event, suggesting his male bias is at work: > Tim may says- > > > >But the solution is clear: if the women on the list wish this to be > > >talked about, they should begin to talk about it! One cannot ask > > >others, e.g., men, to talk about what one is unwilling to talk about > > >oneself. > > Nancy Lebovitz responds- > > > On the other hand, it's the men who are concerned with the absense > > of women on the list. > > Score! Touche! (I don't know if you were trying to "score points". .) TILT! I've expressed no concern about the absence of women on the list, and today's debate was largely sparked by Amara's comments about why so few women may be on the list, not by moanings from men about why there aren't more women on the list. (Indeed, occasionally men--and women--comment on this, but I think few of us are surprised that the list is so dominated by males.) > > If > > you're concerned about the absence of women, then *you* need to > > offer something they want--or, as I suspect, quit offering an > > atmosphere that they don't want. A little rudeness goes a very > > long way. > > Bing! (I mean, the sound when you say the magic > word--the opposite of BZZT.) TILT! again. If women want to talk about their key issues (which should be the same issues men want to talk about, since there's really no difference between men and women....you mean the issues are in fact different? Hmmmhhh...), then they should just do so. It's maybe too bad for the list that so few people commented on her egg-freezing question, but so be it. Maybe few men are interested. Maybe we're not medically knowledgeable. (Keith Henson used to be on the list....he's one of the few people I know that might have some Alcor-related knowledge on this. Otherwise, it seems that it's pretty much up to Amara, who's the interested party, to do some reading and then let us know what she finds out.) Much as I like Amara, I can't work up much sympathy for the interpretation (not her phasing, so bear with me) that because only a few men commented on her question about egg-freezing that men are somehow being hostile to or dismissive of women's issues. --Tim May -- .......................................................................... Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA | black markets, collapse of governments. Higher Power: 2^756839 | Public Key: PGP and MailSafe available. Note: I put time and money into writing this posting. I hope you enjoy it. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1993 23:25:49 -0800 From: kwatson@netcom.com (Kennita Watson) Subject: Claudia Schiffer > I'm not "offended" by the "political incorrectness" of brother > Israel's post, but as one who enjoys the presence of women in this group, > I'd rather see him share that sort of thing with other consenting adults > in private, so the mailing list has less of the aura of a boys' locker room. A valid point. I apologize if anyone was upset with my comments. For the record, I wasn't offended, either. Kennita Kennita Watson | Do I want to live forever? Maybe not, but give kwatson@netcom.com | me one or two hundred thousand years to think HEx: KNNTA | it over. - KLW, 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1993 01:10:00 -0800 From: jamie@netcom.com (Jamie Dinkelacker) Subject: TECH: Flourescent/Incandescent lighting query Personal experience about flourescent lights: they give me headaches if I'm at a computer or tv screen under the lights, I get stomach/intestinal cramps around them, and give me weird "nervous energy" (Extros who know me personally recognize that I've already got enough energy). Also, the buzz drives me nuts, especially when the buzz of several different lights/fixtures have their own interference waves. An optomotrist buddy in Michigan says that certain "rose colored" (yes, you read it right) lens coatings can reduce the flicker headaches, but I never tried it because I'm rarely at computer screens under fl. lights anymore (I usually bring my own halogen lamp to wherever I'm working), and don't wear glasses at a screen. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1993 23:53:24 -0800 From: jamie@netcom.com (Jamie Dinkelacker) Subject: Brave New Extropia? No Thanks. catholics, native americans, individuals suffering from nearsightedness, those with athlete's foot, eye color. I'm interested in the topics that get discussed and the contributions made by individuals. Through years of teaching college and working in the broadcasting industry, I've seen general tendencies that do reflect much of this debate -- males are more assertive, females are more emotional ... blah blah blah. But the essence I've seen is different. No individual is a statistic. Cultural differences often account for more difference than gender difference, or provide a deeper connotative meaning (e.g., do you get a different expectation if you're going to go have a meeting with an Jewish woman vs. a Japanese man? Does country of origin or ethnicity ever connote more than gender? What comes to mind?). Yes, I have very close Jewish and Japanese friends who are males and females. For what it's worth, I think many of the gender difference discussions miss a basic point. I don't see the essential maleness/femaleness in the same terms. I tend to see a basic cut in people between do-ers vs. wannabes, or persons vs. wimps. I've had plenty of VERY assertive "in-your-face" female students and coworkers, and I have had numerous totally wimpy men who leap out of their chairs in fright when a door slams. I had a female business partner for a decade. And, yes, her style is much more subtle and smooth than mine, but is that because of gender or because she was raised in a rural midwest very polite and gracious family while I was a scrappy kid from the northeast waving a hockey stick? Key point: she's brilliant and accomplished. She granted herself permissions and didn't ask from others; she recognized the essence that her life was hers to live. And does it. Everybody has something someone else will discriminate on: sex, race, weight, nationality, religion, attractiveness, wealth, muscles, bustline, speech, pedigree, job, .... Political correctness is a shield to hide behind for those who haven't the strength, drive or character to stand on their own. They're not worth the bandwidth. The basic point I want to make is simple: cream rises, it doesn't need permission from the milk, and it's gender blind. -- ................................ Jamie Dinkelacker Palo Alto CA Jamie@netcom.com 415.941.4782 ................................ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1993 23:00:38 -0800 From: dasher@netcom.com (D. Anton Sherwood) Subject: subjective time Phil, posting from a place so underpopulated that parishes are as big as counties, muses: > I thought about writing a story taking place within the time period of > the singularity itself, where someone sets out for some reason or another > to cross the country and travels a subjective thousand or so miles before > he even crosses two parish lines. I'm not sure whether he should cross the > third before "dying of old age:" having his identity shift radically. This reminds me of a story -- possibly a comic-book -- in which a man who has become immortal finds that subjectively his life has become a series of brief episodes; though outwardly normal (for an ageless man), he has no memory of the increasing gaps between "lucid" periods. Can anyone identify the story? Anton Sherwood *\\* +1 415 267 0685 *\\* DASher@netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1993 22:20:34 -0800 (PST) From: tcmay@netcom.com (Timothy C. May) Subject: POLITICS: The Polly Klaas Bill Some folks over in tall.politics.guns have a good idea: Lobby for a "Polly Klaas Bill" that would implement the "three strikes and you're out" sentencing: "career felons" would get life, or death (how's that for irony?). Polly Klaas was, to no one's surprise, found strangled and dumped. The "alleged perpetrator" (have to be careful here) was a 15-time felon, at least he had 15 convictions (which means he most likely had many times that many crimes under his belt). Rape, kidnapping, assault, bank robbery, etc. I heard a young girl declaiming to heer associates yesterday in downtown Santa Cruz that all he needs is one bullet. No expensive prison cell. Her associates were skeptical. As I walked past her, and heard this, I looked at her. She saw me, and glared. I smiled, and said "I agree with you." She smiled. So, to tie some threads together, maybe when _children_ are kidnapped, tortured, and killed, maybe the maternal instincts of women are triggered and they become as aggressively bloodthirsty as men can be. We've all heard this about how mother animals will fight to defend their young, and how human mothers will likewise kill anyone that threatens their children. Maybe there's hope. --Tim May -- .......................................................................... Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA | black markets, collapse of governments. Higher Power: 2^756839 | Public Key: PGP and MailSafe available. Note: I put time and money into writing this posting. I hope you enjoy it. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Dec 93 01:19:56 GMT From: Michael Clive Price Subject: Jay O'C.'s uploads and straw men... Lines: 9 X-Mailer: PCElm 3.01 (1.3 gt) Arthur D. Hlavaty > ...... fundamentalist Protestants have been known to picket > the Mormons for daring to call themselves Christians when they > are actually polytheists. And Muslims regard Christians (except Unitarians) as infidel polytheists. Trinity and all that. Mike Price price@price.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1993 00:28:40 -0800 (PST) From: mlinksva@netcom.com (Michael R Linksvayer) Subject: The Decline and Fall of the Extropians List Elias Israel writes: > Sheesh, what a bunch of sourpusses! Hear, hear! > Though I can't follow along as easily when people discuss AIT, and > though I have no personal interest in extropian shoes, proper bath > tubbing (and hot tubbing), or whether the list justice gripe of > the week is well- or poorly-founded, I still find the list as a > whole quite valuable. > > First of all, the list provides access to people with lots of > great experience in many different areas. You can't buy that > kind of networking. > > Second, I like being able to discuss things with a group of people > who are not mentally trussed by today's political correctness, > social or intellectual convention, or simple narrow-mindedness. Let's > not forget how rare a commodity that is. (Try asking your dentist > seriously about how many decades you'll get out of a new dental > appliance. He'll give you a very puzzled look if you complain > that two or three decades doesn't seem like a very long time.) Amen to all this too. > Finally, I attribute at least three major changes in my life to > exposure to this list. In the year or so that I've been here, I've > moved more from talking about things to doing them, and I'm very happy > about it. My three big self-transformations for this year are: I partially attribute three major things to my exposure to this list: * I've become a vitamin-gulping, exercising vegetarian. I haven't noticed any benefits yet (but I've always been very healthy). Hopefully it'll pay off in the long run (and for now I can feel oh so godawfully EC). I suppose eventually I'll sign up for cryonic suspension. * Lots of intellectual stimulation. * Moving to San Francisco (though the 99+% rental occupancy in Austin and Thinking Fellers Union Local 282 probably had more to do with this than the Bay Aryan extropian community). Mike Linksvayer mlinksva@netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1993 23:22:01 -0800 (PST) From: mlinksva@netcom.com (Michael R Linksvayer) Subject: Brave New Extropia? No Thanks. Humor: Lefty's and Tim May's posts are often riotously funny. Aesthetics: There isn't much discussion because the idea of 'extropian' art is plain silly. Btw, I loathe Rush (the band and the radio guy) and the Shamen. I don't think that anyone is claiming that art is unimportant (it is _very_ important to me). There just isn't any reason to believe that extropians should have broadly similar aesthetic interests. I'd love to discuss Japanese noise bands, and probably someone on the list loves bonsai, and someone else is into tea ceremonies, but we'd each be boring the other 300 or so list members. Things which should be aborted: I really don't understand how anyone, especially a woman, could want to have a baby. Really blows my mind. Pain and suffering, ugh! A long time ago someone mentioned on this list a study that claimed that immediately after giving birth women immediately start downplaying what a hideous experience it was so that they would not be deterred from breeding again (the evolutionary advantages of this behavior are obvious). Is this true? I've forgotten the rest of Amara's points, and I'm too lazy to scroll back. Oh well. Mike Linksvayer mlinksva@netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1993 00:07:50 -0800 (PST) From: mlinksva@netcom.com (Michael R Linksvayer) Subject: work and slavery Derek Zahn writes: > So, is there a theory of work out there that deals with these > issues? Has this topic been discussed here in the dim past? Not that I remember, other than Duncan Frissel (I think) extolling the virtues of being a temp/contractor and Tim May wondering why so many (I haven't noticed) libertarians are in low-paying jobs. I'd say that doing work which maximizes one's utility is pretty extropic. I suspect that extropians will be more likely to take work that involves more calculated risk and more opportunity for personal growth. As to why anyone would take low-paying work, I can think of two reasons: it is easy and fun. From 1982 till this spring I worked in numerous low-paying, low-skill jobs, and I'll say that anyone who claims that low-paid workers are overworked is full of crap. Far from being mind-numbing, these jobs are so easy that anyone with near normal intelligence should be able to do a competent job while thinking of somethig entirely different and/or playing with coworkers most of the time. Of course I didn't have to worry about supporting a family with a low paying job. I did notice that many people who were attempting this feat weren't so well off. Well, anyone who starts a family without the means to support one is a fool, plain and simple. Mike Linksvayer mlinksva@netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1993 23:32:20 -0800 (PST) From: mlinksva@netcom.com (Michael R Linksvayer) Subject: META: Decline and Fall of the Extropians List? Joe M. writes: > Derek Zahn writes: > > >lots of bach and mozart > ... > >oh yeah man and Rush's lyrics are just the coolest > > Rush's lyrics and their music are excellent. Their music ... > Does anybody know of any similar bands? I'm always searching > for more excellent music+lyrics. Yeah, Zeni Geva is pretty similar (guitars and drums, right?) + they have excellent lyrics. 'Total Castration' is a fave of mine. (Trying hard to tie together two threads). > | "I'm old enough not to care too much | > | About what you think of me | > | But I'm young enough to remember the future | > | And the way things ought to be" | ^^^^^ Ugh! I hate hate hate that word. Rush sux. Mike Linksvayer mlinksva@netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1993 00:47:24 -0800 (PST) From: mlinksva@netcom.com (Michael R Linksvayer) Subject: META: Decline and Fall of the Extropians List? EJO writes: > Instead, the list swayed me, out of my smugness--but not into > anarchocapitalism--but instead into this queer, formless void in which > all political speech seems utterly foolish. Do I need to mention that > this helped my fiction? Of course not. I'm an AC, but I must say that I've reached a similar conclusion. It is hard for me to not laugh while talking about politics. I am _so_ glad that I got whatever activism and ideology I had in me out of me in college. In a message shortly after the one I'm replying to here, Nancy L. asks "*how* do you judge ideas about how human groups should be structured?" Should is an ugly word. Here's why I'm an AC: because I think I'd like to live in an AC society more than any other alternatives. Would the Yugoslavians be better off with a strong central government, public bathrooms on every streetcorner, or Jehovah's Witnesses running the schools? Who ^%&$@# cares! Mike Linksvayer mlinksva@netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: 07 Dec 93 00:07:40 EST From: Sandy <72114.1712@compuserve.com> Subject: VIRTSEM: VIRTBIZ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT Reply to: ssandfort@attmail.com . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Extropians, There seem to be some tacit and unchallenged assumption being made about businesses operated in a VR environment. They are that the operating metaphor for the VR would be "stores" in "malls" or on "streets." Computer cycles are cheaper than personnel. As a consequence, I think most VR/cyberspace businesses will be automated. If so, the appropriate metaphors are the vending machine, the slot machine and the ATM. Having the opportunity to bump into people seems irrelevant to VR shopping. If you want a new coat, you dial up the one or more of the coat companies listed in the VR Yellow Pages. Once in contact, you browse through the companies' catalogs, pick your coat and order it. Q.E.D. The places it does make sense to meet people in a VR environment are in VR meeting rooms (coffee houses? lecture halls?) or at amusement arcades dedicated to multi-player games/experiences. S a n d y >>>>>> Please send e-mail to: ssandfort@attmail.com <<<<<< ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Dec 93 00:20:13 EST From: fnerd@smds.com (FutureNerd Steve Witham) Subject: Brave New Extropia? No Thanks. Tim sez- > You see, this is not _really_ an issue of "dominance," as in the > "alpha male" theories, but rather a case of not giving strangers and > possible enemies any ammunition. Yesss! It's usually not so much trying to dominate as trying to make sure one is not dominated by others! Tim was in the middle of a different point but this is a general truth about "male dominance." Of course now the issue is, what kinds of ammunition are you concerned about which other people having. -fnerd quote me -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.3a aKxB8nktcBAeQHabQP/d7yhWgpGZBIoIqII8cY9nG55HYHgvtoxiQCVAgUBLMs3K ui6XaCZmKH68fOWYYySKAzPkXyfYKnOlzsIjp2toust1Q5A3/n54PBKrUDN9tHVz 3Ch466q9EKUuDulTU6OLsilzmRvQJn0EJhzd4pht6hanC0R3seYNhUYhoJViCcCG sRjLQs4iVVM= =9wqs -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Dec 93 22:32:11 -0800 From: cappello@cs.ucsb.edu (Peter Cappello) Subject: Brave New Extropia? No Thanks. Tim May writes: Whether I endorse it or not, it is a true statement that many males I know, including myself, practice this behavior: * argue with all one's energies with the opponent, debating style. Concede very few points. * if the points made by the opponent are lousy one, forget them. * if the points made by the opponent are good one, and he is in fact basically right, use the arguments as your own. ----------------- It is my experience that, as a generalization, this is factually correct. However, one is likely to more rapidly get to the truth of the matter by viewing the conversation as a mutual discovery process, an exploration, rather than a debate; this permits an ego-detached playful attitude that releases creativity; the debate style inhibits playfulness with ideas. Clearly, not everyone is suited emotionally to such playfulness. Do we need to be wary of those whose insecurities prevent them from playing with ideas that they originate? Tim continues (I have deleted some material): By "dominance-seeking" I mean the folks who _gloat_ and _smirk_ when you say you were wrong. Little boys learn early on that to concede defeat to these dominance-seekers is the verbal equivalent of rolling on your back and baring your throat, i.e., submission. --------------------------------------- Yes, they see my admission of error as their victory: They misinterpret my behavior. I refuse to be governed by their feelings. I thus free myself from their attempt to enslave me, to determine the way in which I explore ideas. By admitting my error publicly, I am showing them, not that I submit, but that my "throat" is impervious; unlike them, my self-esteem does not hinge on being correct. They, likely, will not get it, and think that they have won. Ideally, I don't care what they think. Indeed, by publicly admitting my error, in addition to more rapidly exploring the field of ideas, I simultaneously am rapidly exploring my partner's level of self-esteem. When, in the future, I wish to play with an idea, I will know better who to ask to come out and play. People witnessing the transaction will interpret it differently. Again, I don't care about the opinions of people who think that I lost. People who are playful will notice, and will select each other. In this sense, the group bifurcates---a consequence of freedom of disassociation. Speaking of freedom of disassociation inclines me to raise a related but older thread. On this list, returning a flame with a flame is, IMO, unnecessary and undesirable: It is as if we are playing the iterated prisoners dilemma, where: 1. each [pairwise] transaction is broadcast to the entire population; 2. players choose with whom they interact. If someone gives me tit, I may simply refuse further interaction. (Of course, in meat-space, the reverse is true.) Pete ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1993 23:51:09 -0500 (EST) From: schirado@lab.cc.wmich.edu (Schirado) Subject: SOC/LEGAL: Marriage, licenses [Line eater food. If this keeps up, we'll have to start adding "pre-.sigs" to all posts -- three or four lines of absolutely nothing at all. Here's hoping the already overworked Harry can see the death of this little bugaboo soon.] Regarding "Re: Why I'd rather eliminate the state", kwaldman writes: > I don't know about the rest of you but I would prefer not having >a marriage license vs being married in a church. A rare attitude, and one which anyone should share who wants less government in their life. >Last time I looked a church was voluntary....The minister who married my >wife and I was visibly upset that the state law required us to get a marriage >license. [ I'm not recommending anything just pointing out that being >married in a church is voluntary while a marriage lic. is not] A "license" is, by definition (Bouvier's Law Dictionary), voluntary, since it is an application for favor or privilege to do that which would not otherwise be lawfully possible. There is nothing unlawful in marriage; it is something any number of consenting adults of any gender may engage in, without anyone else's permission. Unfortunately, America is currently the only country whose legal framework explicitly makes such principles clear, and after over two hundred years of increasing statism, maintaining and defending such a position is somewhat difficult, to say the least. However, it is still possible, as a growing number of individuals are finding out. Bill Garland expressed concern in a slightly related matter of marriage: >The minister from my wife's church asked me about religion, and I >told him I was an atheist and didn't believe in anything he did, >and he replied "Yes, there's a lot of philosopher's talk about >lately, isn't there.", and then he dropped the subject. Heh. A heh, heh. It's rather sad that the modern church seems so deliberately and joyfully, willfully dumb. Some of the greatest philosophy in history was recorded by religious folks. It speaks volumes that this fellow equates philosophy with atheism. >My then-girlfriend did not want me to get into a fight with him, >and to keep the peace I got married in a church and even had my >kids named (christened, and egad, baptized) in a church by the >same minister. I even paid him for his services. I can't believe >the depths to which one can sink when compromising for family peace. It all depends where your priorities lie, right? I'm sure you ended up making what you thought, at the time, to be the best decision. >The church has a history of doing things in our province, such as >running the schools and hospitals; registering births, deaths, and >marriages; and abusing children in orphanages. A lot of folks I know say they don't need the government to keep track of their marriages, births, deaths, etc., because they have their family Bibles as record of such occurrences. I greatly enjoyed your jury duty tale, as well... >Anyway, I mention all this because that very same day, after publicly >declaring my atheism in no uncertain terms, I got a phone call from >someone "updating the parish list", asking me if they had my right >address and if I was still a member of the parish. "No, and No" I >said, since I had moved, and I had never considered myself to be a >member of their parish, and the woman on the other end of the phone >started to say "But.... oh, never mind." and then hung up. Try answering a question with a question: "Is my answer to that mandatory or voluntary?" >I guess this could have been a coincidence, but it never ceases to >amaze me to what lengths people will go to intrude into your life. Damn straight. Too many people allow themselves to be intruded upon, as well. Interested parties are encouraged to FTP files from etext.archive.umich.edu:/pub/Politics/FrogFarm (A new directory has recently been created, /pub/Legal/FrogFarm, and the /Politics directory is a symbolic link to this new one.) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1993 14:41:50 -17634834 (DST) From: garth Subject: work and slavery First and foremost, I should congratulate you all for having created a mailing list with the best signal:noise ratio of any public- participation etext medium, broadcast or narrowcast, I have ever encountered. In reference to tcmay's "what =are= the lurkers doing?" query; this signal:noise ratio is perhaps a good part of the reason why, despite a good megabyte of data having flowed past since I subscribed, I haven't contributed until now. There's a lot of noise in my normal net-habitats, and I can make significant contributions to the general quality of my environment without much effort at all. So much so, that it is now an ingrained habit to refrain from posting unless my posting will make a significant contribution. This is fine in the noisier areas of the Net, but in here it's somewhat intimidating. . So, I've been biding my time and waiting for something to wander across the screen to which I would feel compelled to respond. And here it is: > Is there an extropically-friendly theory of work out there somewhere? > > I've been thinking that one of the reasons that bright, individualist > people tend to be underemployed and in financially difficult situations > is a simple unwillingness to be enslaved. My reaction will identify me to most of you as being someone who probably considers himself to be a bright, individualistic, and underemployed person in a financially difficult situation because of a simple unwillingness to be enslaved. Hey, it's a comfortable label. I'll wear it as long as it suits me. [A hypertext-based message editor would be a wonderful thing. I'd love to be able to create a quick link from that last sentence to the first book in the Illuminatus Trilogy, namely the scene in which the protagonist is being "sworn in" on Hagbard Celine's submarine. Asides like this are all very well and good, but it would take forever to fully explain the reference; I'd prefer to simply create the link and let people follow it up if they're interested.] A friend and I recently 'stormed the concept of the virtual workplace, and indeed of the virtual workforce. We're planning to put our ideas to the test by forming a loosely-associated group of (you guessed it) bright, individualistic, underemployed programmers in financially difficult situations, but all of whom have net connectivity. The skeleton: give everyone sufficient information to allow them to operate some automated revision control and documentation software, as a basic necessity for efficient team programming. After a few test runs to sand off the edges, offer ourselves as a pre-established team of tele-commuting (or rather, net-commuting) programmers. The test runs (which we really need to re-name) will be projects of perceived benefit to the net community in general -- say, CopyLefted NFS client software for DOS-based Intel platforms, a version of sendmail that works and is easy to configure, or a twist on text-based virtual realities ("muds" to some of you :) in which a great deal more of the work is shifted to the client. These test runs, mounted on a regular basis in parallel to the projects for which we'll be (hopefully) being paid, will be used to give new programmers a feel for the style of work and discover their relative strengths and weaknesses. They'll also allow us to make a solid contribution to the net (which is, after all, our working environment -- we intend to "pay the rent" as it were), and, to be pragmatic, be excellent PR. >From the programmers' pov, the group will offer an opportunity to work productively in a comfortable environment (assuming net connectivity). Most of the people we've approached consider this a great relief; they're frustrated, and to a great degree bewildered, by trad business' fixation with things that have no relevance to the work being done. [Face it: if you're not dealing with the public, does it really matter what your hair style is? If you don't need to regularly consult with other staff, does it really matter if your body clock seems to insist on sleeping during the day? Provision of other examples is left as an exercise for the reader.] For the prospective employers, the group offers an established team of programmers that provide all of the benefits of flexibility (being able to provide 200 programmer-hours in a week at the drop of a hat, dynamically add or remove people as required, and so on) without having to deal directly with what the employer sees as the disadvantages of flexibility -- odd hair cuts, flippant attitudes, a preference to working at night with loud techno blaring, and so on. Backtracking; the programmers we've approached have, unanimously, been people who have been given a major run-around by their employers in the past. Some haven't been burnt, but have been unable to find work because they're unwilling to Faust themselves and make major lifestyle changes they see as un-necessary to the work at hand. Others are frustrated at having to play endless games of "chase the spec". Whatever the cause, they're all extremely interested in any options that don't require "having to deal with suits". The virtual workplace/workforce concept IMHO offers them a decent option, and I think there's juuust enough infrastructure around to provide the foundations. So, we're going to give it a shot. Is this sufficiently "extropian-friendly"? Can anyone see major flaws or unexplored potentials? Comments encouraged... ------------------------------ End of Extropians Digest V93 #340 *********************************