From extropians-request@extropy.org Fri Nov 19 21:32:31 1993 Return-Path: Received: from usc.edu by chaph.usc.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1+ucs-3.0) id AA02552; Fri, 19 Nov 93 21:32:28 PST Errors-To: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Received: from news.panix.com by usc.edu (4.1/SMI-3.0DEV3-USC+3.1) id AA26878; Fri, 19 Nov 93 21:32:25 PST Errors-To: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Received: by news.panix.com id AA05904 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for more@usc.edu); Sat, 20 Nov 1993 00:26:55 -0500 Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1993 00:26:55 -0500 Message-Id: <199311200526.AA05904@news.panix.com> To: Extropians@extropy.org From: Extropians@extropy.org Subject: Extropians Digest X-Extropian-Date: November 20, 373 P.N.O. [05:26:20 UTC] Reply-To: extropians@extropy.org Errors-To: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Status: RO Extropians Digest Sat, 20 Nov 93 Volume 93 : Issue 323 Today's Topics: Re: LANG: E-prime and General Semantic Swamp [1 msgs] Re: Addiction for Uploadees [1 msgs] BlackNet Investigations Needs More Detailed Info! [1 msgs] Drugs [2 msgs] E'C (E-prime correct) [1 msgs] Freezing Eggs [1 msgs] How Voluntary Socialism is Disproven Rationally [2 msgs] MEDIA: Crypto article in BW [1 msgs] META: Charging $ for the List [1 msgs] Mark Venture's "Most Entropic Star Trek Episode" goes to... [2 msgs] Medieval Iceland was NOT a PPL! (Discussion welcome) [1 msgs] Meta model and E-prime [2 msgs] Nyms (fwd) [1 msgs] PHYSICS: Theory and experiment [1 msgs] Administrivia: No admin msg. Approximate Size: 51570 bytes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1993 13:46:10 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Sulkowski Subject: Medieval Iceland was NOT a PPL! (Discussion welcome) From: smo@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Shawn O'Connor) >In Laissez Faire's November catalog there's a book on the law of saga >Iceland, called _Bloodtaking and Peacemaking_ by William Ian Miller. >Has anyone read it? I'm reading it right now. It is fascinating! Highly recommended, especially as a "primer" for further reading of the sagas. I've noted David Friedman's objections to the book and will try and find one by the author he recommends instead. I am glad that I am reading THIS one though. I think it is valuable to read a book on the Icelandic "Commonwealth" that is NOT written by a libertarian just to see what sort of unlibertarian features there might be in such a society. A non-libertarian is more likely to point them out, I suppose. There was an especially curious thing mentioned in the book. The author claims that there were laws which required people to support the local poor (usually people who have fallen through the cracks of the family support system). I'm not sure what the penalty was for avoiding this support. Outlawry, I assume. The author does say that there was no evidence of how effective the system was in practice, or even that it WAS practiced. I'm also not sure if Christianity was the influence for these laws or not (it wasn't mentioned). Also, it appears that there was a "mandatory" tithe. Should this be considered a tax? Does anyone know more about all of this? Also, from the small amount of information I have gathered so far, I assert that the Icelandic system was NOT a "PPL". There was only one source of law, the Allthing court. The lesser Thing courts did not appear to be a source of law independently of the Allthing. The system was definitely centralized. I don't see how the system can be considered "polycentric" at all. Discussion on my last contentious point is welcome. * . ====\\. ~ //==== || \\ ~ . *// || || \\ * // || || \\.~// || || \\// || || Mark \/enture || ==================== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1993 13:51:03 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Sulkowski Subject: E'C (E-prime correct) FUTIQUE NEOLOGISM: E'C (an E'C) -- Someone who is E Prime Correct. Er...a person whose attitude towards E Prime resembles that of the Politically Correct towards speech. PROPER USE: You are E'C, right? PROPER RESPONSE FROM AN E'C PERSON: I resemble that remark! * . ====\\. ~ //==== || \\ ~ . *// || || \\ * // || || \\.~// || || \\// || || Mark \/enture || ==================== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 93 10:59:34 PST From: tcmay@netcom.com (Timothy C. May) Subject: How Voluntary Socialism is Disproven Rationally Nancy Lebovitz writes" > I'm not sure that Tim has disproven all possible forms of socialism > by bringing up the calculation problem, since after the Singularity, > people will be able to calculate much better. Is there a proof > that the complexity of what people want and will do about it is > *always* going to be greater than their calculational ability? I've seen no such proof, though I do believe that "command economies" are doomed to inadequately equalize supply and demand. Dave Burns had some speculations about using an algorithmic information theory (AIT) approach to show this....would make a nice paper, I think. The case of globally optimizing a set of constraints is generally a very hard problem. E.g., the "student assignment problem," where students prioritize their classes desired and then computers attempt to opimize the actual assignment. (Some radicals have even proposed introducing markets to this problem, where students bid money on what classes they get! Horrors!) Consider the case where I want to move my belongings from one place to another. In a market economy, I "signal" the price I'll pay, by word of mouth or by advertising, or I react to a signal sent by moving services, via prices quoted, "Yellow Pages," etc.. The relative importance of _my_ move to what other's are doing is secondary--I have "wormholed" (not an economics term!) directly to someone interested in moving my stuff. In a command economy the value of my move (huh? how is this determined?) must be weighed against all the other priorities. If the moving vans are all out helping bring in the wheat harvest, then I don't move, period. This, to me, is not a _computational_ problem; it is instead a _signalling_ problem. Even with unlimited computer power, the central planners in the Kremlin cannot know the relative importance I place on moving. Absent a market, these priorities remain hidden. But in a market economy, how I spend my money is itself the best signalling mechanism. (I'd be curious to know from any Russians out there--Sasha?--just how in fact people moved around in Russia. I suspect it was a combination of _asssigned apartments_ and black markets in moving services, e.g., people with access to trucks used them to moonlight in the moving business. But I don't really know.) > Also, would a society in which everyone voluntarily lives in communes > that own property and compete/cooperate with each other count as > free market or socialist? I think that a society like that would > avoid the calculation problem, at least to a fairly large extent. Several others have already answered this. In short, the local situation may be communistic, but their inability to coerce other members of the society into their local system makes it a free market. A free society allows locally socialistic or communistic systems. A nonfree society does not allow locally free systems. --Tim May -- .......................................................................... Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA | black markets, collapse of governments. Higher Power: 2^756839 | Public Key: PGP and MailSafe available. Note: I put time and money into writing this posting. I hope you enjoy it. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 93 11:15:51 PST From: tcmay@netcom.com (Timothy C. May) Subject: BlackNet Investigations Needs More Detailed Info! BlackNet Investigations, Inc., is pleased with the many revelations of drug use by database subjects here, but is distressed that so many of the revelations are anecdotal and second-hand. Remember, our clients need solid facts: dates of use, quantities ingested, and friends involved. (Our Connection Machine has a lot of spare CPU cycles to burn making cross-correlations with other subjects.) We are especially interested in LSD use, as one of our clients (janet_reno@justice.gov) has indicated major interest in LSD usage. So, please give more details! If you hurry, your postings can still be included on our next CD-ROM. Have a nice life! -BNI, Inc. -----BEGIN PGP 2.4 SIGNATURE---- 7PTDYzicDTrvtqLy/YlkJLsG/lAstrfAQ3znzc+bVHwoniZBUs3wAzbpuq2iuXyi qvcNAC7q7AqGWrU/M/XUrCr6UulxpNWFM8ta98AtoCwHQ3LtvyqPpoZJJ9syLDhq aWr2kbYM9AVZ01RdBDMuZ6Ly19rXcl8+OmXMUoEc9yYSyxBHtLS3+JkLIAwkU9lo ktdmj3QQvhaAgUBjzkad+uirk5I+x99Q+3xoG9izFfb8r6mglVgA4hOgt25bnSDb JarYlqYK0qTutg8NV+dwU4q98vdPHmlLs4EW+1zbaD6RZrXJKrODcpN1MzhbSrN0 lMxTho7XjOUHykvoab/JxSykogwZWcDWGER+/5Xo1tA= =FMfy -----END PGP MESSAGE----- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 93 19:41:25 GMT From: nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu Subject: Re: LANG: E-prime and General Semantic Swamp Richard Kennaway writes: >Perry Metzger writes: >>Indeed, expressing "The map is not the territory", a very GS cliche, >>is difficult in E-Prime because you couldn't express the underlying >>fallacy in E-Prime to begin with. > >Strict E-Prime speakers can say: "The map and the territory always differ". > >Another variation on strict E-Prime has been proposed by Robert Anton >Wilson: he forbids "is", but allows "is not", on the grounds that the >semantic reactions[*] evoked by the latter are of a healthy character >quite unlike the unsanity[*] of the positive "is". > I could believe that if I hadn't recently gotten into a really pointless discussion in which I was arguing that medicine is not a science. I could tell that it was an idiotic discussion when I was in it, but the only way out that I could find was to go talk to some other people. "Is not" may be safer than "is", but it isn't safe enough for my taste. Nancy Lebovitz ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 93 19:46:06 GMT From: nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu Subject: Re: Addiction for Uploadees Nick Szabo writes: >Hi, > >> I think that one of the themes of modern civilization is the invention >> of potentially addictive things/hobbies followed by partially effective >> methods of ending the addiction. > >This is an interesting observation! I've been interested in >what sorts of things would motivate uploadees >once we leave behind the biological substrate (hormones, sex, >food, etc.) which dominate our lives today. It might >be important to have some kinds of emotions that motivate >extropian behavior and dis-motivate possibilties for >addition. Any thoughts on that? Yes, but unfortunately, the first one is "I found that reading and posting to extropians had become unmanagable...." :-) The second one is that I do think that uploadees will need emotions or pleasure or something of the sort. There was a discussion on the life-extension newsgroup about what you'd do after you got unloaded, and whether it would be ok to lose all physical pleasures. It might be possible to have a good life(?) without them if enough other things were going on, but I suspect that the pleasure of a good idea coming together is also a physical pleasure. I suppose that you could construct an upload that was motivated by a sense of duty, but it wouldn't have any reason for maintaining the s of d, and being ruled by duty sounds like No Fun and un-extropian as well. It's possible that some sort of motivation is an emergant quality of sufficiently complex interacting systems (certainly those that don't have motivation will tend to disappear), but I wonder if it will be enough like what we have now to make most people want to upload. (I can just see it now--you upload because uploadees say that it's just like being human, only better. Once you do it, you discover that it's nothing like being human, you don't like it, and the uploadees are following the uploadish motivation to build their own community. Of course, they don't let you have access to any method of warning other unuploaded people, and soon enough, they reprogram you so that you're one of them. It's all extropianly correct because they don't think that flesh people have rights--they lack the fundamental sentient characteristic of being able to do quick, thorough self-reprogramming.) It may be worth pointing out that an uploadee will still have a physical base that needs to be maintained, though it might take much less work than maintaining a flesh body does. On the other hand, I can easily imagine uploadees (assuming that the motivation problem gets solved) wanting to upgrade themselves to the limits of available physical resources. Hope that this supplies a starting point, Nancy Lebovitz ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 93 11:52:57 PST From: szabo@netcom.com (Nick Szabo) Subject: Nyms (fwd) Derek Zahn: > One of the good things about such a system is that > I am not compelled to forward such messages, thus hopefully reducing > some of the problems that Cypherpunks has with anonymously-posted > drivel. It's widely believed that 'nyms increase the possibility for such drivel, but my observation is that I just don't see that it has happened. On cypherpunks there is much more drivel posted from True Names (eg Detweiler) than from nyms or anonymously (eg S. Boxx). We have several nym posters (eg Dark and Black Unicorn from Leichtenstein) who probably would not be able to contribute under their True Names. On several lists and newsgroups nyms have made some high quality posts concerning illegal topics that might not have been made under True Names. I hope in the future a capability can be provided for untraceable posting by paid Extropian list members. There is a huge amount of _de facto_ censorship based on what employers, governments, etc. might think at any point in the future about what we say now. Anon/nym posting breaks the chains of that censorship and allows us to talk freely. Much thanks to Derek for forwarding the great post from "Eternal Optimist". We definetely need a privacy/anonymity FAQ to replace Detweiler's (which quite aside from his current lunatic binge is full of holes, and I regret not having criticized it earlier). It would be ideal to have the FAQ written by a nym! I'd also like to announce that I will gladly forward any anon or nym post to the Extropians list as long as it (in my loose judgement) upon request, as long as it refrains from flaming Extropianism or Extropians. Nick Szabo szabo@netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1993 14:22:14 -0600 From: cpresson@ingr.com (Craig Presson) Subject: PHYSICS: Theory and experiment In <9311191322.AA20770@balder.cs.wisc.edu>, Derek Zahn writes: |> Sorry to be non-EC, Yep -- violates BE and DO both. Good going. but I do worry about creating states of matter |> with no precedent in the history of the Universe. One explanation |> for the apparent lack of technologically-advanced aliens would be |> that some such thing, on the natural technological path, causes |> an unforseeable catastrophe. It's a skiffy idea! And we're in one of the universes where it hasn't happened ye ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1993 14:29:23 -0600 From: cpresson@ingr.com (Craig Presson) Subject: Meta model and E-prime In <18277.753633580@U.ERGO.CS.CMU.EDU>, Tim Freeman writes: |> From: kwatson@netcom.com (Kennita Watson) [...] |> A related system is the meta-model by Bandler and Grinder, as defined |> in The Structure of Magic, volume 1, chapter 4. [...][Using "to be" to get |> the emphasis right again.] The meta-model is a procedure for mapping |> an utterance into a set of questions for grammatically clarifying the |> utterance. [...] By-the-by, GS has something like this as well, maybe not as elaborate. I'll say more about it when I've read that far :-) -- cP ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1993 15:10:15 -0600 From: cpresson@ingr.com (Craig Presson) Subject: MEDIA: Crypto article in BW Nov 22 Business Week pp. 128-129, "Duking it out for the decoder ring" Subhead: With sales of encryption systems booming abroad, US companies say they stand to lose billions (Sagans?) to foreign rivals The picture and quote from Whitfield Diffie is worth the price of the magazine -- the content of the article, while free of any screaming gaffes, is the usual "view from 10 kilometers up" that fits in 2 pages of a weekly business glossy. ^ / ------/---- cpresson@ingr.com (Freeman Craig Presson) /AS 5/20/373 PNO; ISGS 9/373; ExI 4/373, NRA 5/373, etc. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1993 16:15:50 +0500 From: brian@suneast.east.sun.com (Brian Hawthorne - SunSelect Strategic Marketing) Subject: META: Charging $ for the List > If you want to ``freeload'' (no offense), find someone who has paid > for the list and get them to forward you messages via .forward. Hmm. I thought this was explicitly disallowed by the List rules. Has it changed? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1993 16:16:23 +0500 From: brian@suneast.east.sun.com (Brian Hawthorne - SunSelect Strategic Marketing) Subject: Meta model and E-prime > I read about E-prime in Etc. a while back, and they claimed that in > practice, people cannot only use "to be" in only certain grammatical > contexts, because the habit they need to develop to stop themselves > from using the verb must be simple. [Any ideas about how to put the > previous sentence in E-prime while keeping the word "simple" at the > end for emphasis?] "I read about E-print in Etc. a while back. They claimed that in practice, people cannot restrict the use of "to be" to certain grammatical contexts. In order to stop themselves from using the verb, they need to adopt a habit with one particular characteristic: simplicity. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1993 12:55:12 -0800 (PST) From: Oliver Seiler Subject: Drugs On Fri, 19 Nov 1993, Kennita Watson wrote: > What if direct neural stimulation allowed a truly realistic > experience? I might use this to save me a lot of time trying things > I wouldn't enjoy. It would also allow me to walk on Mars with Earth > gravity, go from Mercury to Pluto in an instant, and perform other > nifty experiments. I would *rather* do the real thing if possible. Doesn't mean I would. If it took me a lifetime just to have a single experience, I would rather have it simulated in some fashion. If some new form of travel is conceived of that would allow me the same experience in a day (using the space related scenarios) then I would rather do the real thing... I'm just a bit of a slave for pain. I *like* working for something that I consider is worth the effort... > > BTW -- I consider books and movies virtual experiences as well. Do > you have some reason why these don't count? If the experience is impossible in 'normal' reality, then that's what has to be settled for I suppose. I like reading books and movies as well... so, no, I wouldn't say they don't count... > I have found [LSD]'s use a reprogramming drug to be useful, if not > somewhat slow (because of it's interesting 'side-effects') > > I thought that one could reprogram oneself faster with LSD than with > other methods. Do you know a faster one? What "interesting > 'side-effects'" do you mean, and how do they slow down the > reprogramming? > The fact that if I'm trying to do something, the walls start to melt... Sometimes can be distracting... (Although in lower doses this is not much of a problem) > Oliver writes: > [re LSD] > Hits is 5 minutese, effects last for at least a day, can sleep on it, > wake up still high... Can be kinda annoying to some extent > when things last that long... > > Annoying doesn't cover it. I find that frightening. Having no way to > escape the experience scares me. I'd prefer to start with something > that lasts as short a time as possible (30 seconds would be ideal -- I > can put myself in a situation in which I can almost certainly not do > anything really stupid in 30 seconds), so I don't feel trapped. Well, it was fun at the time, since the build up was slow (first effects at 5 minutes, slow build up, peak in 2 or three hours, slept, woke up still high (that was annoying since I was going to lunch with the folks that day, although the effects were very weak at that time) Remember this IMHO wasn't LSD, but some sort of derivative of LSD. It was on blotter paper, so unlikely to be any other drug, and I've never had the effects on any other trip (except from the same batch)... > > Could someone list how long the effects of various drugs last? I have > two endpoints (I think): At one end, heroin (4 minutes); at the > other, LSD (over a day). > See above, that wasn't LSD, but I think LSD-49 (is that the number? I still don't know) which has an extra bromine atom attached and is supposedly stronger than normal LSD-25... > I envision a market for a whole line of "litmus papers". > Decriminalization of drugs would make this more likely. And I can see > the Consumer Reports survey now.... I think you could probably make a killing at the present time as well. Not distributing illegal substances, so I don't see why not... There are simple tests which don't prove anything much, but can let you tell if the substance you're testing *isn't* what it is claimed to be... (for example LSD is luminous in certain UV light) > [In PIHKAL,] > detailed methods for synthesizing various Phenetylamines (mescaline, > MDMA, DMA, etc) are given. Not for the chemistry impaired this part... > > So I could make this stuff myself? I have fond memories of my > Transition Metal Chemistry Lab.... I've heard more than once about > the difficulty of synthesizing LSD, and the likelihood of ending up > with something poisonous -- does this extend to other drugs as well? > Actually LSD isn't that difficult, depending on your starting materials. Hoffman's original synthesis at Sandoz was very simple, and could use ergot (a grain fungus) as a starting material, with extraction of the active substance at the end. Of course I consider it simple, but the synthesis still requires quite a bit of organic lab experience... Transition Metal chemistry wouldn't be good enough IMHO (there are a lot of good texts on organic chemistry though. College and University courses are available as well... not that I encourage people to start making drugs, of course) The syntheses given in PIHKAL require more than a basic understanding of lab technique. Safety is of prime importance in all organic chemistry... > >From Oliver again: > [Hell, the afterglow surrounding MDMA > sometimes lasts for *months*, if the proper reentry is taken]. > > Please define "reentry", and the nature of this "afterglow". Thanks. Wasn't me so I can't say :) Not sure about reentry, although I presume it referred to the coming down period. MDMA can make this time to be quite ecstatic (hence the name) The afterglow would be a general happy feeling for quite a while after. I've experienced this myself, although not for more than a week. I doubt this is residual (chemical) effects of the drug though. More likely is the thought pattern generated during the trip carried through into normal life. This is IMHO one of the reasons it has found so much weekend recreational use... Too expensive for my tastes though. Besides I'm pretty happy all the time anyway... > Do [LSD] effects kick in one at a time, like colors of a spectrum or > suchlike? For instance...? > I usually get a twinge within the first half-hour, then nothing, then a gradual onset starting at about 45 minutes to an hour. Effects creep up pretty quickly at this point, peaking at about the two or three hour mark, at which I tend to find a gradual decline, with effects still noticeable until I go to sleep. Generally completely fine the next day. Effects vary per person. I don't get vivid hallucinations. My only hallucination is what looks to be a thin veneer of oil on everything, slowly flowing down and away. Quite neat. I've been able to duplicate the effect while straight, with more effort. I suspect that it is due to a relaxation of the eye muscles, so they don't jerk around as much (which they normally do). The oil forms patterns which look suspiciously like the Mandelbrot set... > > I had envisioned mescaline as a powder. Does it occur naturally? > Pure mescaline is a powder and occurs naturally in the peyote cactus, which, if I heard correctly, has been made legal again for those religions which use it in their ceremonies (although maybe only for native indian groups which use it in their ceremonies) > Kennita Watson | Do I want to live forever? Maybe not, but give > kwatson@netcom.com | me one or two hundred thousand years to think > HEx: KNNTA | it over. - KLW, 1993 -Oliver ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1993 17:40:06 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Sulkowski Subject: Mark Venture's "Most Entropic Star Trek Episode" goes to... Mark Venture's "Most Entropic Star Trek Episode To Date" goes to the most recent episode entitled "Force of Nature". The episode begins with the Enterprise looking for a lost ship in a region of space that mysteriously exudes deadly radiation. There is only a corridor of safety to pass through. The ship is temporarily disabled by an ingenious mine which takes the warp drive off line but does minimal damage otherwise. Two aliens beam on board, a man and a woman. The woman is a brilliant scientist who claims to have evidence to support a theory that Warp Drive break down normal space over time, creating dangerous rifts. The analogy is made to a carpet that is walked on long enough developing holes. They justify the mine by claiming that it is necessary for the Federation to take IMMEDIATE action regarding the use of Warp Drive. (i.e. Their race intends to stop using Warp Drive AT ALL and wants other races to follow suit.) (The man alien's entire purpose in this episode is to be amazed by the woman's brilliance without fully understanding her theories.) Data recommends that the Federation send a science vessel to study the phenomenon. However, the aliens are insistent on IMMEDIATE action. Data checks through the theories and evidence that the aliens have brought, but Data finds NO SUPPORT for their theories. In fact, he points out that her "brilliant" theories are based on UNPROVABLE ASSUMPTIONS (sic). However, the woman alien, having become fanatical in her cause, decides to commit suicide with her ship by causing a reactor core breach, which has the intentional side-effect of creating the rip in space-time that her theories (with those unprovable assumptions) had "predicted". Now that proof exists, the Federation is forced to pass regulations on maximum Warp through certain areas of space, which will become increasingly draconian over time. The ultimate goal is the total elimination of ALL FTL travel. All of the space faring races will be forced to retreat to a new Stone Age (my phrase, i.e. pre-spaceflight civilization.) No alternative is suggested. No hint of the possibility of alternative FTL technologies being researched. No sign that any way of preserving their civilizations. The Federation basically gives up and plans for strategic retreat. Picard expresses regret that the wonder of exploration that he lived has lead to the potential harm of all the races he encountered. This episode strikes me as being a message from radical environmentalists such as Earth First! ("Back to the Pleistocene!"). It promotes the idea that technology is unavoidably evil, that science based on careful RESEARCH and the SCIENTIFIC METHOD is inadequate, that theories based on UNPROVABLE ASSUMPTIONS and no supporting EVIDENCE should be acted on without delay, that there is no point in researching ALTERNATIVE technologies when ones we find have negative side-effects. Gene Roddenbury must be turning over in his grave right now. I don't see how he would ever have let anyone destroy the positive view of human future that he had and shared with all of us. This episode was the very essence of seeking limitations; of retreating; of giving up one's hopes, dreams, and aspirations; of believing such aspirations to have been evil and harmful; of seeking the security of the Stone Age. Thus, "Force of Nature" gets my special award for entropic content. * . ====\\. ~ //==== || \\ ~ . *// || || \\ * // || || \\.~// || || \\// || || Mark \/enture || ==================== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 93 18:09:17 EST From: rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu Subject: How Voluntary Socialism is Disproven Rationally Timothy C. May writes: > This, to me, is not a _computational_ problem; it is instead a > _signalling_ problem. Even with unlimited computer power, the central > planners in the Kremlin cannot know the relative importance I place on > moving. Absent a market, these priorities remain hidden. I think it is a signaling problem, a computational problem, and perhaps a psychological problem. If there is no market, no currency, how do you even indicate how bad you want something? Let's say the Kremlin sends you a Sears catalogue and says "please put in requests for the items you want and we will compute which ones you will get." How do I value any of the items? What I order isn't even related to how much I produce or how much I work. Between two people who work identical jobs and are just as productive, how does the Kremlin decide? Foo says "I want that state strawberry cake really bad" and Bar says "I have dreamed my whole life of getting that cake." In a market, both Foo and Bar would allocate their money on luxuries in order to maximize their utility. It's a computational problem because even if the Kremlin computer had real-time information, it would have to globally optimize that information and in real time before another glut of signals came in. If it didn't, it would fall hopelessly behind the changing preferences of people and become inefficient. One approach to overcoming this might be to eliminate the central allocation idea and install thousands of mini-command economy computers locally in each community. These mini-Kremlin allocaters would then trade community resources with the central command computer. Thus the market process could be harnessed without allowing individuals to participate in it. However, I claim that this approximation to a real market would still fail to be as efficient as a true free market because of its granularity and the requirement of egalitarianism between communities -- a mini-allocater would be prevented from being kicked out of the market and any innovations it used to "gain" would have to be shared with every other community. And if you add cryptoprivacy and pseudonyms to this society, the Kremlim computers are blown out of the water. They don't even know how many people they are dealing with or how many times they have dealt with them in the past. The only recourse left for a socialist is to claim that he doesn't want efficiency, but egalitarianism, null environmental impacts, or whatever. I have encountered many people who have argued this, e.g. I don't care if the markets better or whether people have a better life, we don't come before the ecosystem. Or better, "it doesn't matter how much people have, only that no one has more wealth and power than anyone else." -- Ray Cromwell | Engineering is the implementation of science; -- -- rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu | politics is the implementation of faith. -- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 93 15:22:12 PST From: GRAPS@galileo.arc.nasa.gov Subject: Freezing Eggs Hello Extropians: This is probably the only list I can think of where the following wouldn't be thought of as a bizarre request. Please send me (privately or publicly) information on the status of the technology of freezing human eggs and embryos to then 'thaw' and use/fertilize, say 10 years in the future. Thanks.. Amara Graps graps@gal.arc.nasa.gov ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 93 15:24:41 PST From: Eli Brandt Subject: Drugs > From: kwatson@netcom.com (Kennita Watson) [re benzodiazepines] > Moreover, the withdrawl symptoms are just about > the opposite of the drug effects; a heightening of anxiety, neurotic > fears and phobias, paranoia, twitchiness. > > Would this happen even if I only took it once? No. Becoming physically addicted to anything requires continued use. For example, habituation to street heroin requires weeks to months of daily or more-than-daily use. For opiates, the rather nebulous phenomenon of "psychological addiction" is probably more of a worry. > Have others had this experience with mushrooms? How long does the > experience last? How long does the shaking last? Does it feel like > cold? Like overtightness? Like overlooseness? Does it keep you from > performing normal tasks (driving, typing, preparing food), or from > sleeping? "Speedy" effects are common with all classical psychedelics, though I'd heard that they were actually less prevalent with psilocybin. This usually means slight to moderate tremor, sometimes bothersome, and muscle tension. This would usually not prevent you from typing or preparing food. Driving a car is a bad idea in most altered states, and sleeping is usually out of the question. > I've heard about psychoactives (and maybe other drugs) mimicking > psychosis, or even precipitating psychotic episodes in nominally sane > people. Does anyone know about this one way or the other? I've ::nosent some material on this to the list; ###. Briefly, "psychotomimetic" is a misnomer; no drug is known which duplicates the symptoms of a psychosis with any accuracy. LSD can precipitate psychotic episodes. It has been claimed that this can happen to individuals who would not otherwise have suffered such, but the evidence is weak. > Annoying doesn't cover it. I find that frightening. Having no way to > escape the experience scares me. I'd prefer to start with something > that lasts as short a time as possible (30 seconds would be ideal -- I > can put myself in a situation in which I can almost certainly not do > anything really stupid in 30 seconds), so I don't feel trapped. Nitrous oxide lasts about that long, and has the advantage of being legal. I don't find it particularly interesting, though. > Could someone list how long the effects of various drugs last? I have > two endpoints (I think): At one end, heroin (4 minutes); at the > other, LSD (over a day). The endpoints would probably be nitrous, at half a minute, and 2C-G-5, at 48 hours. Anticholinergic deliriants like scopolamine can also last a long while. Heroin actually lasts for a couple of hours (the initial "rush" is much shorter), and LSD only for 8 to 12. I can't really list durations for everything under the sun, anything specific? > Do most people actually get dopey on pot? I can stand to mellow out, > but I want my brain to still work.... Marijuana is a protean drug. Some variation is probably attributable to the variant of the plant, while some is probably a function of the user. Some people use it like alcohol, while one guy at apple.com reports that he programs much better stoned. > So I could make this stuff myself? I have fond memories of my > Transition Metal Chemistry Lab.... I've heard more than once about > the difficulty of synthesizing LSD, and the likelihood of ending up > with something poisonous -- does this extend to other drugs as well? What you need is organic chemistry lab experience. Transforming lysergic acid to LSD is not a difficult process from the perspective of a synthetic chemist, and most drug syntheses are easier. It's still easy to blow yourself away if your lab experience was fifteen years ago. Furthermore, illicit synthesis carries significant risks, not all of which are borne by yourself. > However, one tab typically represents > about 75 micrograms of the drug, while some people may use 300 mcg > and up in order to get the full spectrum of effects. > > Do effects kick in one at a time, like colors of a spectrum or > suchlike? For instance...? Sort of. The effects begin after .25 - 1 hours, with the intensity peaking in the 1 - 3 hour period and falling off thereafter. (This is for LSD; other psychedelics have quite different profiles.) Effects are reported at various intensity levels: tactile alterations at low levels, synthesthesia at moderate, ego dissolution and annihilation of time only at high levels. So there is a patterned appearance and disappearance of phenomena. > I had envisioned mescaline as a powder. Does it occur naturally? It occurs in peyote, from which it was isolated around the turn of the century by Heffter. A more accessible source is Trichocereus pachanoi, San Pedro cactus -- a popular ornamental, at least around here. Synthetic mescaline sulfate would be a mass of needle-like white crystals. > Thanks for the heads-up. Does Ketamine fall under the class of > barbiturates? Psychedelics? Something else? It's classed as a "dissociative anesthetic". It and its relatives are rather odd drugs, actually. Eli ebrandt@jarthur.claremont.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 93 18:34:21 EST From: rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu Subject: Mark Venture's "Most Entropic Star Trek Episode" goes to... Tell me about it! Between the caricature portrayal of capitalists, the Ferengi, to the constant use of the word "profit" like it's vulgar, to the politically correct episode plots (DS9's episode about that handicapped woman), the outcast, and now "Force of Nature" I am sick of it. Guess what's next? Well it seems a race of people in an upcoming DS9 episode are going to claim that Bajor was their ancient homeland. Sound familiar to a certain middle east struggle? Star Trek has degenerated from a science fantasy show to a morality play. I'm still waiting to see how they are going to work NAFTA and Health Care into upcoming plots. NEXT WEEK ON STAAAAARRR TREK THE NEXT GENERATION Announcer: "A trade dispute along the neutral zone threatens the alliance." Picard: "Millions of people on Galordin II will lose their cultual traditions if this treaty goes through!" Announcer: "But the Ferengi have difference plans..." Ferengi: "When this treaty is signed, we can move our polluting factories off the Ferengi homeworld and have our weapons produced on Galordin II." [Picard to Ferengi] Picard: "You will not be allowed to PROFIT at the expense of the culture of Galordin II!" Ferengi: "We only wish to provide them with better jobs." Announcer: "And the federation must step in to prevent the exploitation..." Picard: "Arm all weapons, lock onto Ferengi ship and prepare to fire." Announcer: NEXT WEEK, on STAAARR TREK, THE NEXT GENERATIN and NEXT WEEK, on DS9: "A scientist aboard Deep Space 9 discovers that the use of energy is accelerating the heat death of the universe. Will the federation be forced to shut down all Star Bases and Space Stations? Find out next week, on Star Trek, Deep Space 9." -Ray p.s. Patrick Steward told the audience on Jay Leno that he is "far left" and votes Labor in the UK. -- Ray Cromwell | Engineering is the implementation of science; -- -- rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu | politics is the implementation of faith. -- ------------------------------ End of Extropians Digest V93 #323 *********************************