From extropians-request@extropy.org Mon Oct 11 19:01:47 1993 Return-Path: Received: from usc.edu by chaph.usc.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1+ucs-3.0) id AA00470; Mon, 11 Oct 93 19:01:44 PDT Errors-To: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Received: from ude.tim.ia.ung.gnu.ai.mit.ed (ude.tim.ia.ung.gnu.ai.mit.edu) by usc.edu (4.1/SMI-3.0DEV3-USC+3.1) id AA21092; Mon, 11 Oct 93 19:01:26 PDT Errors-To: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Received: by ude.tim.ia.ung.gnu.ai.mit.edu id AA16886; Mon, 11 Oct 93 21:55:44 EDT Received: from news.panix.com by ude.tim.ia.ung.gnu.ai.mit.edu via TCP with SMTP id AA16881; Mon, 11 Oct 93 21:55:28 EDT Received: by news.panix.com id AA15347 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for exi-maillist@ung.gnu.ai.mit.edu); Mon, 11 Oct 1993 21:55:18 -0400 Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1993 21:55:18 -0400 Message-Id: <199310120155.AA15347@news.panix.com> To: Extropians@extropy.org From: Extropians@extropy.org Subject: Extropians Digest X-Extropian-Date: October 12, 373 P.N.O. [01:54:54 UTC] Reply-To: extropians@extropy.org Errors-To: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Status: RO Extropians Digest Tue, 12 Oct 93 Volume 93 : Issue 284 Today's Topics: [1 msgs] CRYPTO: Authentication [1 msgs] Diet and cancer [2 msgs] FWD: Memetics - Journal Of Ideas Vol. 2 #2/3 Contents [1 msgs] Forward: Virtual City (tm) Network FAQ 1.0 (fwd) [4 msgs] GUNS, SOC: Burglary and countermeasures [1 msgs] GUNS: Blanks [1 msgs] HUMOR - Viruses [1 msgs] My Target Practice [1 msgs] Virtual City (tm) and Virtual Capitalism [6 msgs] Administrivia: No admin msg. Approximate Size: 52046 bytes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 10 Oct 93 21:38:18 PDT From: szabo@netcom.com (Nick Szabo) Subject: Virtual City (tm) and Virtual Capitalism (This is a minor mod of a post I made to the cypherpunks list, it may be of general interest to non-cypherpunks extropians). One of the main strengths of Virtual City seems to be to that its gets rid of the fascist heirarchy of "wizards", the virtual equivalent of factory managers in the old Soviet Union. (Caveat: these are just my impressions of the V.C. project, I'm not personally involved in it). Also the quote is "information _wants to_ be free", not "should be". Alas, it is easy to bottle up information by restricting it to small cliques of wizards. On the other hand, many of the world-wiser wizards may be able to use their MUD building skills to become Virtual City tycoons. There are probably plenty of wizards pissed off by politically-dominated MUDs, where access to resources has increasingly become a function of sharing beers with the "god" and less a function of contribution to the MUD. Wizards who are better MUD builders than beer buddies have incentive to jump ship and carve themselves out nice niches in a free-enterprise MUD. I suspect Virtual City, and net commerce in general, will evolve to where people buy and sell some information as services, and exchange other information freely. The distinguishing feature between valuable services and free information will likely be that services will be hard to copy, the end result of obscure, logically deep computations, providing information unique to each customer order or dependent on hard-to-duplicate phyiscal hardware. Freely copyable information typically will be sellable only a few times, and even then the sale price will depend on it being hot/unique news, uniquely valuable to a specific customer or temporary situation, or conveniently located. Old news, educational material, etc. will be free, barring fascist patent/copyright enforcement, but the customers will often pay for more convenient methods of distribution (eg smart filter services). Content _per se_ will want to be free, so one will not be able to generate revenue simply based on popularity of content. Content generation will not pay and will not dominate the economy. A good example is the distinction between the freely copyable GNU and X-Windows, and the for-pay consultation, customization, porting, help desks, etc. that have sprung up around them. Most of the effort goes into the latter: since people like to make a living, most of the economic effort will go into services rather than the exchange of free information. As bandwidth becomes cheaper the free info exchange will expand, but the incentive for creation is limited to self-sacrificing efforts or side-effects of government or consulting businesses or corporate charity (eg GNU, X, PGP). I look forward to something like Virtual City providing a free-market alternative to the heirarchical control of information (crypto key authorities, Unix file permissions model, MUD Wizard model, ad nauseum); I do not see it replacing the GNU free software model. Nick Szabo szabo@netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Oct 93 22:11:57 PDT From: Eli Brandt Subject: Virtual City (tm) and Virtual Capitalism > From: szabo@netcom.com (Nick Szabo) > One of the main strengths of Virtual City seems > to be to that its gets rid of the fascist heirarchy of "wizards", > the virtual equivalent of factory managers in the old Soviet > Union. You've made comments to this effect about MUDs before, I believe. Would you say that there is a distinction between the system of wizards with control over their MUDs, and a PPL system with competing jurisdictions? I wouldn't know whether this is a valid analogy, or whether MUDs do in fact involve a "fascist hierarchy". But if it is and they do, we might look at the situation to see if we can avoid replicating it on any larger scale. > Nick Szabo szabo@netcom.com Eli ebrandt@jarthur.claremont.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1993 01:42:52 -0400 From: Alexander Chislenko Subject: FWD: Memetics - Journal Of Ideas Vol. 2 #2/3 Contents >From owner-cybsys-l%BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU Tue Oct 5 18:09:38 1993 Reply-To: Cybernetics and Systems From: Cybernetics and Systems Moderator Subject: Journal of Ideas - Volume 2 #2/3 Contents To: Multiple recipients of list CYBSYS-L Really-From: alife@cognet.ucla.edu (Artificial Life Digest) [ The following is a cross-post from Artificial Life Research List Digest Number 112 Sunday, October 3rd 1993. You are encouraged to subscribe by sending mail to alife-request@cognet.ucla.edu - Moderator ] Journal of Ideas - ISSN 1049-6335 is published quarterly by the Institute for Memetic Research, POB 16327, Panama City, Florida 32406-1327. [For more information contact E. Moritz at moritz@well.sf.ca.us] John Locke Abstract: In 1690 John Locke published 'An essay concerning human understanding'. The essay was pivotal in establishing western scientific thought. While philosophy and the sciences have improved our understanding of cognitive processes, many of Locke's insights concerning the nature of ideas are still valid and need to be brought back into the forefront of any science of ideas. Applications of Locke's foundational theories are as relevant today as they were hundreds of years ago, especially to the areas of artificial intelligence and expert systems. Captured here are parts of the `Essay ...' which deal with faculties and operation of the mind, basic concepts of 'ideas' and activities on ideas. Locke's concept of simple ideas, combination of simple ideas into complex ideas, and aspects of retention of ideas are suggestive of the present track of memetics. Keywords: ideas, memory, mind, perception, cognition, meme, philosophy, epistemology, artificial intelligence, expert systems. ENERGY FLOW AND ENTROPY PRODUCTION IN BIOLOGICAL SYSTEMS Brian A. Maurer Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah 84602 Daniel R. Brooks University of Toronto, Ontario M5S 1A1, Canada Abstract. Biological systems persist because they process energy and accumulate excesses that are usable in growth and maintenance. There are two general types of energy transformations that occur in biological systems. Heat generating transformations result in lost energy. Conservative energy transformations produce energy that can be stored and used later to do work. Different types of entropy can be associated with each of these types of energetic processes. Heat generating energy transformations occur when energy and entropy flow in opposite directions. Conservative energy transformations are characterized by entropy and energy flowing in the same direction. Thus the system has conflicting tendencies: heat generating processes move it towards unstructured states and conservative processes move it towards complex structured states. Both tendencies increase the entropy of the system. These ideas are examined from the viewpoint of energy flow through organisms and populations of organisms. As entropy and energy flow through such systems at different rates, structure accumulates at any given biological level, and that structure is constrained by energy and entropy flows at other levels of organization. Rate gradients in entropy production lead to different types of constraint systems governing hierarchically related entities and to the generation of historical constraints at any given level of organization. ON THE ROAD TO CYBERNETIC IMMORTALITY: A Report on the First Principia Cybernetica Workshop Elan Moritz The Institute for Memetic Research, Panama City, Florida Abstract. Principia Cybernetica is an attempt to unify cybernetic philosophy based on harmonizing systems theory and cybernetics. The ontology recognizes meta-system transitions which lead to higher level of organization and evolution. One of the emergent aspects of meta-system transitions, when human society is viewed as a whole, is the human "superbeing" or "metabeing" characterized [among other attributes] by "cybernetic immortality". The metabeing hypothesized by this meta-system transition may share characteristics of a posited homo trans-sapiens. In the context of cybernetic immortality, what survives is cybernetic organization [which may be embodied in a variety of media including organic tissues or electronic networks, rather than strictly biological media]. The practical aspects of the first workshop of the Principia Cybernetica Project, and its main philosophical themes, were concerned with means with which to amplify the spontaneous development of knowledge. Idea memes were discussed as some of the fundamental building blocks which when subjected to mutations and recombinations lead to knowledge amplification. A report is given on papers presented at the workshop. Keywords: systems, cybernetics, meme, immortality, computers, ontology, emergence, epistemology, ethics, evolution, knowledge. THE ORIGINS OF THE CAPACITY FOR CULTURE Jerome H. Barkow Dalhousie University, Halifax, N.S. B3H 1T2, Canada Abstract. Recent work on the capacity for culture by Tooby and DeVore (1987), Parker (1987), and myself (1989) suggests that a multistage scenario is needed with special attention to sexual selection and to the self-predation hypothesis. Just as the evolutionist often examines morphology with a view to generating hypotheses about past selection pressures, it is fruitful to examine aspects of human psychology for compatibility with evolutionary scenarios. The ethnocentrism syndrome, for example, is compatible with autopredation (within species conflict and culling) approach, while alleged transcultural gender differences in sexuality would, if supported, argue for a strong role for sexual selection in the evolution of cultural capacity. Keywords: evolution, capacity for culture, evolutionary psychology, vertically integrated explanation, autopredation, origins of culture. FOLK PSYCHOLOGY, FREE WILL AND EVOLUTION Jerome H. Barkow Abstract. Theorists concerned with the evolution of human behavior often unwittingly strive to "explain" attributes that owe more to our unexamined folk psychology than to biology. Our folk psychology is Cartesian with self-awareness as a sort of homunculus in control of the body. It is more likely that awareness is the organ of impression management and has no executive powers. Evolutionists need to explain the ordering and sequencing of behavior rather than the rise of an executive self. Keywords: evolution, free will, Descartes, self, folk psychology. Editors Editorial Advisory Board -------- ------------------------ Elan Moritz R. Wilburn Clouse, Vanderbilt U. Patricia S. Smith Peter Kiss, Sentar Corp., Huntsville The Institute for Memetic Research Terry M. Mikiten, U. Texas Health Science Center, San Antonio Matthew Witten, U. Texas System, Austin manuscripts and information requests should be directed to Elan Moritz (E-mail: moritz@well.sf.ca.us) ** AIMS & SCOPE ** The Journal of Ideas is an archival (print) forum dedicated to the dissemination of research results and discussion relating to the formation and spread of ideas in human and machine systems. Areas covered include: 1) dynamical and structural theories of idea and meme generation, mutation, combination, spread and dissolution, 2) knowledge generation, representation, and storage in living and artificial systems, 3) cognition and self-awareness in living and artificial systems 4) generalized theories of life, evolution, and ecology in biological, mechanical and electronic systems, 5) classical and quantum mechanical theories of brain/mind interactions, 6) human and machine creativity and, 7) results of experiments in the preceding areas. The Journal publishes research communications, critical reviews, short notes, book reviews, and relevant historical material. The Journal is geared to a diverse audience coming from classical disciplines such as physics, biology, evolutionary and ecological studies, psychology, anthropology, computer science, mathematics, and philosophy. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Oct 93 23:05:11 PDT From: szabo@netcom.com (Nick Szabo) Subject: Virtual City (tm) and Virtual Capitalism Eli Brandt: > Would you say that there is a distinction between the system of > wizards with control over their MUDs, and a PPL system with > competive jurisdictions? MUDs are something like virtual PPLs, and I am certainly not arguing that MUDs themselves are inherently evil. My argument is that MUDs (the canonical versions; there may well be exceptions already in existence as well as proposals like Virtual City) -- traditional MUDs have been set up with an awful model of social differentiation and restriction of information, the "wizard" heirarchy where the "gods" decide to promote "wizards" based on simplistic predefined criterion, political consierations, or some combination thereof. This model doesn't catch the rich possibilities of what constitutes valuable MUD building. It is similar to the bureaucracies of some large corporations and the Soviet factory manager structure. In all fairness, between Star Trek and the Unix file system, the information restriction heirarchy was probably the most acessible role model to the MUD pioneers. So I don't fault them for using that model; rather I'm advocating that we now move beyond it, by introducing a market model of world-building. The model, being simple and controllable, can work well on a small scale, and it sounds good to those whose view of future society is the Starship Enterprise, but it's not a model conducive to freedom, a vibrant economy, or prolific, creative world-building when scaled up. Even without eliminating the wizard heiarchy, a system of inter-MUD trade would be a quite valuable addition to the MUD world. Within many MUDs, incentivizing world-builders with markets to replace the heirarchy (with its simplistic, often politically motivated allocation of MUD resources and restrictions on MUD information access), would be a big win. There is opportunity now for such market MUDs to emerge, such as the Thorne/online service model that might be emerging around the Extropians list, or the model being considered for Virtual City. In the long run, I predict MUDs that switch over to a market model of world-building will thrive on a large scale, while MUDs that remain heirarchical will remain small or dwindle as MUD-builders find themselves better rewarded on the market MUDs, MUDs that allow inter-MUD trade, etc. For Star Trek fans I'm sure the traditional MUDs, their heirarchies unsullied by those messy markets and greedy entrepreneurs, will be remain an option for a long time to come. Nick Szabo szabo@netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Oct 93 4:22:18 WET DST From: rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray) Subject: Virtual City (tm) and Virtual Capitalism Eli Brandt () writes: > > X-Message-Reference: #93-10-470 > > > From: szabo@netcom.com (Nick Szabo) > > One of the main strengths of Virtual City seems > > to be to that its gets rid of the fascist heirarchy of "wizards", > > the virtual equivalent of factory managers in the old Soviet > > Union. > > You've made comments to this effect about MUDs before, I believe. > Would you say that there is a distinction between the system of > wizards with control over their MUDs, and a PPL system with competing > jurisdictions? I wouldn't know whether this is a valid analogy, or > whether MUDs do in fact involve a "fascist hierarchy". But if it is > and they do, we might look at the situation to see if we can avoid > replicating it on any larger scale. All of the current muds have wizards. It's an inevitable result of the centralized design. Since the MUD is running on somebody's machine, that person has full control. Allowing all users to be wizards leads to chaos (e.g. vindictive people wiping out the database by deleting all the objects, or planting viruses, etc) The only solution is a decentralized distributed mud design where the objects that you have built or own reside on YOUR machine, or are crytographically secured on foreign machines. MUDs would then interconnect and people could "walk into" your area and use your CPU/disk space while they were visiting. There are huge protocol issues to be resolved especially in keeping everything synchronized and keeping it from destroying the internet (by soaking up all the bandwidth with redundant data requests) The market comes in by assigning a market price to the disk and CPU resources of your machine (thus allowing people to "purchase" resources for running their objects on your machine) In some sense, the internet already is "The Great Mega MUD" except that none of the disk/cpu sharing is fully automated and marketed. There are FTP sites, but where are the CPU servers? There is gopher and wais/www, but there is no dynamic code sharing across WAN based on market principles. One of the cool ideas I had like a year ago was a DES cracking CPU server network. Hackers could buy DES cracking runs on a network of machines (maintained and organized via a mailinglist), but they would have to pay either by $$$, or by agreeing to sell cycles on their own machines for other people to use for cracking. -Ray -- Ray Cromwell | Engineering is the implementation of science; -- -- EE/Math Student | politics is the implementation of faith. -- -- rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu | - Zetetic Commentaries -- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1993 06:49:58 -0400 From: habs@panix.com (Harry S. Hawk) Subject: Forward: Virtual City (tm) Network FAQ 1.0 (fwd) Mike wrote: >I met and spoke with M. Strata Rose a few months ago and think I can >vouch for her not being a "net.jerk" or having trouble finding work. Having met you, and having I high opinon of you, I value these comments and would like to hear more about your meeting, etc. and your impressions of Strata. -- Harry S. Hawk ON Vacation ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1993 08:43:57 -0500 From: cpresson@jido.b30.ingr.com (Craig Presson) Subject: GUNS: Blanks [...] |> BTW - I also agree that blanks are a bad idea. Like liberal politics it |> sounds like a good idea at first, but when you think about the |> repercussions... ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Groooooooooooan! Very punny. Your PUNishment will no doubt fit the crime. -- Craig ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Oct 93 09:55:46 EDT From: eli@suneast.east.sun.com (Elias Israel - SunSelect Engineering) Subject: Forward: Virtual City (tm) Network FAQ 1.0 (fwd) Mike Linksvayer writes: > Then again, VirtualCity or whatever it is called may be totally bogus. > Hopefully I'll talk to Strata and see a demo in the near future. > > For better or worse, it is people like Strata who are building the net > of tomorrow. Or people like Bill (Clinton). In practice, they're one and the same. My top three gripes about VirtualCity (and the reasons why it's not a particularly extropian project): 1. Construction of virtual vistas is controlled by a Zoning Board, for crying out loud! This means that VirtualCity is basically someone's authoritarian fantasy, where they remake the universe in their own image and the rest of us get to flesh it out for them. Feh. 2. The particular schemes the zoning board uses require all directions to follow simple cartesian coordinates in 3-space. What's the point of building a cyberspace if you can't transcend the limitations of the physical world? Why should anyone want to type their way down a street instead of flitting from place to place? In cyberspace, we can be gods; these people want us to remain mehum. 3. The VirtualCity project is seeking (and will probably get) goverment funding (which explains my comment above). Hey, build any kind of authoritarian utopia you want, but don't do it on my dime. In any case, as Derek has already pointed out, there's little to the project now but hot air. They may be able to build it, but I doubt it will become any kind of model of future cyberspace interactions. Elias Israel eli@east.sun.com HEx: E ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Oct 93 10:11:30 EDT From: eli@suneast.east.sun.com (Elias Israel - SunSelect Engineering) Subject: Virtual City (tm) and Virtual Capitalism Nick Szabo writes: > This model doesn't catch the rich possibilities of what constitutes > valuable MUD building. It is similar to the bureaucracies of some large > corporations and the Soviet factory manager structure. In > all fairness, between Star Trek and the Unix file system, > the information restriction heirarchy was probably the most > acessible role model to the MUD pioneers. So I don't fault > them for using that model; rather I'm advocating that we now > move beyond it, by introducing a market model of world-building. I can't see how VirtualCity, with its zoning boards, is any less a hierarchical system of authority. If anything it's worse because the authority is a committee rather than a set of individuals. Typical modern MUDs vary in the amount of freedom that a new user will experience. For a counter-example to Nick's view, I offer TinyTIM (telnet to port 5440 on the machine yay.mdc.com). Although the day-to-day operations are controlled by the "Council of Seven" (which has 8 members) there is very little social stratification. The wizards (who own the machine and maintain the software) establish and defend their right to refuse service to anyone particularly rude or offensive, but they otherwise leave people alone to interact and create new cyberspaces. (At least two of the wizards are of libertarian leanings.) Besides this, the TinyTIM players schedule frequent (and, by all accounts, successful) parties at which to meet and interact face-to-face. Elias Israel eli@east.sun.com HEx: E ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Oct 93 11:00:31 -0400 From: Tim Freeman Subject: q::resend #93-10-429 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Oct 93 17:19:56 BST From: Mark Grant Subject: Forward: Virtual City (tm) Network FAQ 1.0 (fwd) Derek Zahn said (with quotes from the Virtual City (tm) FAQ): > >The Virtual City (tm) Metropolitan Transit Authority, VCMTA, > >is being designed concurrently as an object transport model between > >instantiations of various Virtual City (tm) Sites. We will be > >offering templates for instantiations of our city model to be used by > >communities and organizations, with a true distributed model allowing > >users and information to flow freely throughout the Virtual City (tm) > >Network. > Creative Acronyms (tm) aside, this is impenetrable. Hopefully they > (he) have (has) a clearer vision than this! Actually, if you've spent a while programming MUDs, it's fairly obvious. Basically what they're saying is that they'd have multiple sites running the server program (presumably with each site representing a different part of their "Virtual City (tm)", or a different "Virtual City (tm)"), and they would give you the program and basic data-set to set up your own site. Then, they'd provide a comms protocol allowing objects to be transferred securely between the different sites. I think the MOO code already gives you that, certainly it's built into at least one variety of MUD. It might have made more sense if they'd explained it that way, though... > >Cultural attractions such as art galleries, museums, and music > >halls are placed throughout the Virtual City(tm) Network > They are? Can I see? I presume they mean 'there will be access to lots of .GIF and .WAV archives using our neat 'Virtual Art Gallery (tm)' and 'Virtual Music Hall (tm)' interfaces'. Sounds like the cyberspace shell for unix that I wrote years ago, it's much more exciting to 'enter art gallery' and 'look at mona lisa' than 'cd images/gif ; xvgif mona.gif' 8-) > >"virtual-citizens@virtual.net" > > Now, despite this message, I do like to see people trying things, > and will subscribe to this list. Ditto. > These people's unfamiliarity > with the technology, the difficulty of recruiting volunteer labor > for J.Random.Net-lurker's vision, feauturitis, and a lack of any > clear target set of facilities and market make me think that this > will remain in possibility-space rather than reality-space. I > hope I'm wrong and that the natural tendency of people to mistake > dreams for impending realities can in some instances change the > world. Well, I don't think it's that difficult to recruit volunteer labour (e.g. most MUDs), keeping it when the net.lurkers vision turns out to differ from yours seems to be the main problem. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1993 12:33:08 -0500 (CDT) From: derek@cs.wisc.edu (Derek Zahn) Subject: Forward: Virtual City (tm) Network FAQ 1.0 (fwd) Mark Grant helps clarify what the Virtual City must be all about: > Actually, if you've spent a while programming MUDs, it's fairly obvious. > Basically what they're saying is that they'd have multiple sites running > the server program (presumably with each site representing a different part > of their "Virtual City (tm)", or a different "Virtual City (tm)") ... > they'd provide a comms protocol allowing objects to be transferred securely > between the different sites. Well, now we're starting to get more down to earth. I can see that an extension of the 'exit' semantics of a MUD to refer to a location on a different city could be accomplished, which is virtually the same structural model used in the World-Wide-Web, which explains their reliance on Mosiac as an interface paradigm (and WWW-based services are themselves growing like weeds, so that's a hot area). Ditto for object transfer, though there are nightmarish problems even in these modest facilities (e.g. consistency guarantees, distributed transaction protocols, and nameservers). Similarly, I suppose that gatways to existing internet services aren't particularly challenging. OK, I've read True Names and Snow Crash and played adventure games and been mildly amused by MUDs, so I can see how this could be attractive to some people, though it doesn't seem to buy very much. I was diverted by discussion of cutting-edge aerospace designs, visualization, virtual reality, and commercial service possibilities; what we're really talking about is a zork interface to shell facilities, with the rest as hype to get funding agencies to pay. That's okay. So I'll stop my naysaying and watch and wait. The world can always use another MUD, I guess. derek does anybody but me wonder whether the medium is really the message after all? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Oct 93 11:14:41 -0700 From: cappello@cs.ucsb.edu (Peter Cappello) Subject: GUNS, SOC: Burglary and countermeasures James A. Donald writes: >If there is a burglar in the house, and I have the gun, >then plainly it is my duty to both myself and the >neighborhood to stop him if I can get the drop on him. If >he disobeys, I should shoot. This a positive moral duty, >not a matter of personal self interest. I have an >obligation to make the threat. And having made it I have >an obligation to carry it out. You claim that I have an obligation and a duty to personally kill aggressors, despite consideration of my self-interest. James, if only you knew how unpersuasive that particular argument is. >After carrying it out I do not tell the police "I shot him >to keep my VCR". I tell the truth. I shot him because I >said "Freeze" and he did not freeze. This is generally >accepted as adequate grounds for shooting a criminal. >Failure to freeze suggests that the criminal is going to >respond violently to your threat. I am not arguing, one way or the other, with the merits of shooting intruders whose intentions are unknown. Several people however have advocated shooting unarmed burglars, in the back if necessary, and then "fixing" the evidence to make it look otherwise. All along, I have been exploring the boundaries of good taste. Let's further sharpen the scenario. There are 2 burglars, one holding your VCR, the other holding your lap-top. You demand that they sit still until the police arrive. The one with the VCR clearly states "I am unarmed. I do not believe that you will shoot me, unarmed as I am, in the back. I am leaving peacefully with your VCR." He then proceeds to walk, with his back towards you, towards the door. The other burglar agrees to sit quietly. Do you shoot, with the intention of killing, the burglar who is walking towards the door? If so, do you "fix" the evidence by also killing the witness? If not, can you claim that the killed burglar's kin will not know that you have shot him in cold blood, in the back? Can you be sure that they will not be utterly outraged, feeling, unlike you, that your punishment did not fit his crime? Are you, or are you not, prepared to kill (or have killed) the burglar's wife, his brothers and sisters, his mother and father, and all of his children? If not, what is your estimation of the probability that _none_ of his kin will _ever_ pay to kill (or in some way hurt, perhaps repeatedly) you and/or someone you love? Is shooting the unarmed burglar in the back _clearly_ what is best for you and your loved ones? -Pete ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Oct 93 11:26:24 PDT From: Robert Brooks Subject: HUMOR - Viruses > > Some people (I would even go as far to call them clueless idiots) seem > to be forgetting that humor is a relative thing in the eye of the > beholder. Ignore the twerps, Robert. Why your posts should be subject > to such abuse is odd considering the previous postings of humorous lists > of definitions have gone unflamed. Perhaps because your humour is not > lavatorial or anal enough for their, er, tastes. > > Mike Price price@price.demon.co.uk > Seeing as there is only one post from Robert Blumen, and you use the plural, methinks perhaps you've got him confused with me? Different Robert B's... But, thanks for the support, in any case! Robert Brooks ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Oct 93 13:21:39 CST From: Joshua Farris McMichael Subject: Virtual City (tm) and Virtual Capitalism Those folks who believe that the MUD and MOO systems are inherently authoritarian may wish to check out LambdaMOO (I believe it was mentioned in the VirtualCity(tm) post). Here are a couple of excerpts from the LambdaMOOspaper: PETITIONS AND BALLOTS The LambdaMOO wizards are no longer involved in social control. A system of petitions and ballots allows MOOers to establish ways of dealing with social problems. `help petitions' for more information. One of the ballots established a system of mediation for disputes between players. If you're having trouble with someone and need help resolving your dispute, paging Mediator should contact any online mediator. `help mediation' for more details. LAMBDAMOO NETWORKING LambdaMOO can now open outbound network connections. Some services have already been installed, including gopher (`help gopher'), mail forwarding, automatic registration, a weather map in the Family Room. You can set your mail options so that all of your MOO mail is forwarded to your registration email address, using `@mail-o registration email address using the `@registerme' address. Note that 'bounced' mail will be discarded, and that there is no way, currently, to send regular internet email to MOO addresses at this time. Looks to me like they've got themselves hooked up to the net pretty well, and have instituted a fairly libertarian system of self-government. What's more LambdaMOO is privately funded, as far as I know. The Xerox corporation is running this thing as a testing ground for new VR technology - they are already using code from LambdaMOO to drive an astronomy VR system. LambdaMOO is located at 13.2.116.36 port 8888. Joshua Farris McMichael I151%NEMOMUS.bitnet@academic.nemostate.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Oct 93 15:17:15 EDT From: pmetzger@lehman.com (Perry E. Metzger) Subject: Diet and cancer In the never-ending saga of diet and health, I present the following interesting information. A recent study has shown that men with a high animal fat intake have an 80% greater risk of developing prostate cancer. The study in question was done by researchers at Harvard. Quoting from an article in last week's New York Times: "Those who consumed the most red meat were two and a half times more likely to be found to have advanced cancer or to die of prostate cancer than those who ate meat infrequently. The investigators found a tenfold difference in intakes of animal fat between low and high consumers, ranging from an average of 3.2 grams of fat from red meat each day to 30.5 grams a day. "Total fat intake was also associated with the risk of advanced cancer. Those who consumed an average of 88.6 grams of fat a day had a 79 percent greater chance of developing advanced prostate cancer than those who averarged 53.2 grams of fat daily." Perry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1993 14:48:32 -0500 From: cpresson@jido.b30.ingr.com (Craig Presson) Subject: My Target Practice In <9310070713.AA24748@netcom3.netcom.com>, Kennita Watson writes: |> In the true spirit of spontaneous order, I defected from the plans to |> co-operate of some Bay Aryan extropians |> |> Ah know dey's a lot o' y'all on heah, but tain't no call t'rub it in. |> Sho' nuff. Sheee-it, dey's a lotta Bay Jewyuns (by heritage) too. And Red Clay Celts (hint: don't call me "Aryan" to my face, Celtic Temper isn't proverbial for nothing). ^ / ------/---- cpresson@ingr.com (Freeman Craig Presson) /AS 5/20/373 PNO; ISGS 9/373; ExI 4/373, NRA 5/373, etc. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Oct 93 13:31:58 PDT From: tcmay@netcom.com (Timothy C. May) Subject: Diet and cancer Perry Metzger continues his vegan crusade: > In the never-ending saga of diet and health, I present the following > interesting information. A recent study has shown that men with a > high animal fat intake have an 80% greater risk of developing prostate > cancer. The study in question was done by researchers at Harvard. > Quoting from an article in last week's New York Times: > > "Those who consumed the most red meat were two and a half times more > likely to be found to have advanced cancer or to die of prostate OK, so red meat is bad for you. But what about Big Macs and Quarter Pounders? Not to mention the special now going on with Triple Cheeseburgers... Do these count as red meat? I can never be sure what's buried in there under the Special Sauce, the HaveItYourWay dressing, and the Wonder Bread buns. By the way, having enountered at the recent Extropolooza the two leadings spokestropians for the two sides in the Vegan-Carnan debate, I have to give the victory to Perry. Q.E.D. ("it is demonstrated"). --Klaus! von Future Prime Rib ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Oct 93 13:56:46 PDT From: Robert Brooks Subject: CRYPTO: Authentication I was rather surprised that Tim May didn't take the opportunity provided by my "I'm baaaack" post to expound on digital signatures and cryptographic authentication. So I guess I'll lead with my meager knowledge on the subject, and discussion can ensue from there if there's interest. In that post, I made this bogus accusation: > There's more. I'm sure everyone has noticed the latency of postings after > the list moved to panix. Ostensibly a cost-efficiency measure, I've > discovered that this is not really the case. Rather, the list is now > moderated. Or really, since no one was told it was moderated, it is > _censored_. The List Censor, usually Dave Krieger, reviews all postings > and removes, alters, or returns for Extropianly-Correct editing those he > doesn't like. > How do _you_ know that your posts are not being subtly altered by Malevolent Forces? Maybe you're being made to look foolish, or ill-tempered, or bloodthirsty, or paranoid... A centralized mailing list is particularly vulnerable to such manipulation-- one could get a false sense of security by seeing one's own post reflected unaltered, while some or all other subscribers get the altered version. Then, at the same convenient point of control, responses containing quotes of the altered text also get restored on their way back to the originator so that the facade is maintained. Granted, the fraud would eventually be exposed, the more quickly the more egregiously it was being done. Threads would become incoherent, the perpetrator would slip, or someone would see one's altered quote in private email. But if only done subtly and occasionally... Cryptographic authentication is one way to ensure that such cannot happen. Posts are encrypted with the author's private key, and each reader decrypts with the corresponding public key. Anyone can decrypt, since the public key is available, but the post is known to have only come from the owner of that key, and cannot have been altered. PGP could be used for this today, but it would be inconvenient. Part of the Cypherpunks mission is to make such things more convenient. Verifying that one's post was received at all by all subscribers is another problem, one which would apparently require return receipts of some sort. Robert ------------------------------ End of Extropians Digest V93 #284 *********************************