From extropians-request@extropy.org Fri Oct 8 03:13:33 1993 Return-Path: Received: from usc.edu by chaph.usc.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1+ucs-3.0) id AA24940; Fri, 8 Oct 93 03:13:31 PDT Errors-To: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Received: from ude.tim.ia.ung.gnu.ai.mit.ed (ude.tim.ia.ung.gnu.ai.mit.edu) by usc.edu (4.1/SMI-3.0DEV3-USC+3.1) id AA22965; Fri, 8 Oct 93 03:13:15 PDT Errors-To: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Received: by ude.tim.ia.ung.gnu.ai.mit.edu id AA06672; Fri, 8 Oct 93 06:03:09 EDT Received: from news.panix.com by ude.tim.ia.ung.gnu.ai.mit.edu via TCP with SMTP id AA06667; Fri, 8 Oct 93 06:02:41 EDT Received: by news.panix.com id AA28113 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for exi-maillist@ung.gnu.ai.mit.edu); Fri, 8 Oct 1993 06:02:34 -0400 Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1993 06:02:34 -0400 Message-Id: <199310081002.AA28113@news.panix.com> To: Extropians@extropy.org From: Extropians@extropy.org Subject: Extropians Digest X-Extropian-Date: October 8, 373 P.N.O. [10:01:55 UTC] Reply-To: extropians@extropy.org Errors-To: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Status: RO Extropians Digest Fri, 8 Oct 93 Volume 93 : Issue 280 Today's Topics: [1 msgs] BURGLARY/GUNS [1 msgs] BURGLARY/GUNS [1 msgs] Burning your Health Card [1 msgs] CRYPTO: BRAND NAME CRIME [1 msgs] CRYPTO: BRAND NAME CRIMES AGAINST NASA [3 msgs] CRYPTO: BRAND NAME CRIMES AGAINST NASA [2 msgs] CRYPTO: BRAND NAME CRIMES AGAINST NASA [1 msgs] CRYPTO:still no archive [1 msgs] GUNS, SOC: Burglary and countermeasures [2 msgs] Nightly Market Report [1 msgs] burglary survival [3 msgs] free will [1 msgs] free will, consciousness and operationalism [1 msgs] Administrivia: No admin msg. Approximate Size: 54099 bytes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 7 Oct 93 17:01:37 PDT From: tcmay@netcom.com (Timothy C. May) Subject: CRYPTO: BRAND NAME CRIME > SANDY SANDFORT Reply to: ssandfort@attmail.com .... > I know Tim likes to make us think by stating his cases in the > most extreme terms. Here though, I just can't buy the premise. > Crypto anarchy doesn't give the criminals any advantage over the > non-criminal, on sum. When we look at the world's biggest > criminals (i.e., nation states), Tim has no problem seeing how > individuals come out ahead. So it is too, with garden variety > criminals. Oh, I don't think I've claimed that "on sum" the crime rate will increase. In fact, after some initially "turbulent" times (translation: keep your head down) I expect a more polite society. In line with estimates of Benson, Friedman, Heinlein, and so on. > We don't need the government to have a sting operation. That's > what private insurance companies/defense agencies are for. You > can bet, they will do everything in its power to keep from having > to pay off on my extortion insurance. And "anything" might > include some pretty rough crypto anarchy tricks of its own--up to > and including some variation of the "Coca Cola gambit." Agreed, and I wasn't for a moment arguing that governments will be needed or are desirable...I was answering Perry's point about stings. I expect the "Coca Cola gambit" will be mild in comparison to what some outfits do. > Okay, so how does this apply to crypto anarchy? Yes, the > guerrillas could more easily hide behind anonymity using crypto > techniques, but "more easily" doesn't mean "absolutely safely." > Even the most secure system isn't foolproof. How much would any > criminal be willing to risk if such a massive (and immoral) > response were even remotely possible? And don't forget that untraceable communications give "defectors" within a criminal conspiracy the opportunity to sell out their fellow conspirators, to collect rewards offered, etc. (And there are countermeasure to this, and more measures, and so on.) > Crypto anarchy makes some crimes marginally easier to commit. It > also makes horrendous, extra-legal punishments possible as well. > The left hand giveth; the right hand taketh away. I'd gladly > dump the world we have today, and opt for crypto anarchy--the bad > and the good--in a heartbeat. This is why I refused to sign the "Non aggression" clause in the LP membership form. I interpret aggression against me very liberally, to include all government employees. Blowing up a building full of NASA engineers, while not something I want or plan to do, would not be "first aggression" on my part, as they have stolen my money to build their personal vision of a socialized space program. But the LP views aggression in traditional ways. I am a "trans-moralist." Nietzsche's ubermensch idea is more my style. If other people interfere with me, killing them is an answer. Crypto-anarchy has many advantages. -Tim May -- .......................................................................... Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA | black markets, collapse of governments. Higher Power: 2^756839 | Public Key: PGP and MailSafe available. Note: I put time and money into writing this posting. I hope you enjoy it. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Oct 93 17:08:22 PDT From: tcmay@netcom.com (Timothy C. May) Subject: burglary survival > Or, do what the cops do -- keep an inexpensive knife or gun handy (and > clean of your fingerprints, of course!) to plant on the suspect. > dV/dt This is one of single best pieces of advice I've seen on this List! Thanks! Cops do this, of course, but are sometimes undone by their partners or by other witnesses who see the gun being planted. A home owner, having shot in self defense, is unlikely to have any other witnesses around. (You may not even have to make sure it's clean or free of fingerprints. Just tell the cops who arrive that it's a gun the perp must've found inside the house before you shot him. Not as clean as the Krieger Option, as a DA and jury may not believe the circumstances.) --Tim May -- .......................................................................... Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA | black markets, collapse of governments. Higher Power: 2^756839 | Public Key: PGP and MailSafe available. Note: I put time and money into writing this posting. I hope you enjoy it. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Oct 93 01:19:53 GMT From: sjw@liberty.demon.co.uk (Stephen J. Whitrow) Subject: free will, consciousness and operationalism Mike Price replies to me: >> It's interesting to note that according to operationalists, >> all of these forms of "will" / "free-will" are meaningless >> concepts. >No, just that they are indistinguishable from each other. Therefore >they merit only one label - will. But the operationalists can't do an accurate test to distinguish between "will" and no "will". Let's take the simplest definition that many people accept: "Were you acting under your own free will?" "Yes, I freely chose to do A as I considered it a better choice than B." The respondent could have been drugged, lying, forgetful, or forced into saying the above under threat of death -- in reality he knew at the time whether he was acting freely in doing A, and we know that he must have thought either he was or he wasn't. Science is supposed to be about accuracy, but operationalism can't accurately define the concept, so it is classed as "meaningless". What if you try the test on yourself -- say you've just spent some time on email, and know it was of your own volition? Better not be a determinist. This is from the Grolier's entry on determinism: -------------------------------- Jean Paul SARTRE and other contemporary philosophers have argued that determinism is controverted by INTROSPECTION, which reveals actions to be the result of our own choices and not necessitated by previous events or external factors. Determinists respond that such experiences of freedom are illusions and that introspection is an unreliable and unscientific method for understanding human behavior. -------------------------------- Then we come to "consciousness". >Consciousness results from the inclusion of your mental processes within >your world-view or reality-model. This enables introspection. A fully >testable condition. To test another for consciousness ask them about >themselves (eg how are you feeling?) along the lines of the Turing test. If consciousness can have an effect on human action as I believe, this does in principle, at least, allow us to test for it with the Turing test. (Although there could be problems -- what if the subject is a radio-controlled mechanical device? You really need to dismantle it to check that it's not a fraud.) If, on the other hand, consciousness is an epiphenomenon with absolutely no effects on behaviour, then it would be impossible to tell a conscious subject from a zombie. Since you could not distinguish consciousness from its absence, it'd have to be classed as a meaningless, non-existent concept. So to allow consciousness as an operational concept, it has to have an effect. Conscious beings had a selective advantage over zombies, as they acted purposefully to further their own ends. But this all fits in with their having (free)-will, and we've already decided that under operationalism there can be no such thing as (free)-will. Since there is no (free)-will, there can be no consciousness. The operationalists' only hope seems to be if everyone eventually fails the Turing test, and we're all exposed as zombies.... Steve Whitrow sjw@liberty.demon.co.uk P.S. Aren't we all dog detection machines really? We've only got to observe the alleged dog, and if it barks like a dog, walks like a dog, wags its tail like a dog, and looks like a dog, it is a dog. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Oct 93 18:05:34 -0700 From: cappello@cs.ucsb.edu (Peter Cappello) Subject: GUNS, SOC: Burglary and countermeasures >I think I would much rather have my stereo, computer, etc., rather >than give them up, even at the cost of the burglar's life, ... While I enjoyed this post very much, especially the part about stealing part of one's past life, I wonder where the proviso "let the punishment fit the crime" fits into this? My intuition is that deviating from this wisdom has its own downside. If my intuition is correct, then the spontaneous order induced (via its incentive structure) by killing VCR thiefs may deviate from the one we might most prefer. -Pete ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1993 21:08:39 -0400 From: Duncan Frissell Subject: Burning your Health Card T >For those of us who don't work, but who don't qualify for the free T >treatments the bums and winos will now get, what will be the T >enforcement mechanism? "All part-time workers and non-workers without a spouse working full-time for a corporate alliance employer are covered through a regional alliance. Non-working and part-time single people and families make contributions based on their unearned income. Non-workers and part-time workers pay towards the employer share and the family share of the appropriate premium for their family status." - Page 272 "The President's Health Security Plan" T >If I "burn my health card" at an Extropian/Libertarian rally, what T >happens? Probably nothing. You've heard of the First Amendment haven't you. T >The annual fees of $2000 for a single person--even if we don't want T >their State Mental Health Adjustments--are collectible how? A new T >"Health Revenue Serrvice" system? Random street checks? "Federal guidlines require that regional alliances exercise due diligence in collecting unpaid employer and consumer premium contributions, including the imposition of interest charges and late fees for non-payment and other credit and collection procedures." - Page 275 "The President's Health Security Plan" In other words they sue your ass. BTW, the alliances are supposed to collect for unpaid premiums by applying a premium assessment (surtax?) to the premiums. So if you don't pay, others do. Which also means that the premium projections mean nothing. T >Or is this the long-expected National I.D. card? Since every citizen T >or permanent resident is expected to have one on his or her person at T >all times, it would be natural--though odious--for this to become a T >more widely used form of I.D. than even driver's licenses. "When an employee begins a new job, employers collect the following information and forward it to the appropriate health alliance: o Registration information, including: name, address, identification numbers, family status, and names and Social Security numbers of spouse and dependent children. o Choice of health plan..." - Page 270 "The President's Health Security Plan" Duncan Frissell All quotes are from Times Books' version of "The President's Health Security Plan" so Slick Willy didn't get any of my money. U.S.A $8.00 (Canada $10.50 to pay for their "free" health care). --- WinQwk 2.0b#0 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Oct 93 18:17:51 PDT From: martino@morticia.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Martin R. Olah) Subject: CRYPTO: BRAND NAME CRIMES AGAINST NASA Tim May: > Blowing up a building full of NASA engineers, while not something I want or plan to do, would not be "first aggression" on my part, as they have stolen my money to build their personal vision of a socialized space program. I'm just recouping my first 15 years of taxation, I'm a lowly contractor, etc., rationalization, etc. I'll gladly pay for a tip-off of Tim's visit to JPL. - O Martin PS I did/didn't lose the Mars Observer, depending on your particular feelings. PPS We have an on-lab shooting range and gun club, so be carefull out here. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Oct 93 18:49:50 PDT From: tcmay@netcom.com (Timothy C. May) Subject: CRYPTO: BRAND NAME CRIMES AGAINST NASA (I like the name change for the thread, BTW) O Martin writes: > I'm just recouping my first 15 years of taxation, I'm a lowly contractor, etc., > rationalization, etc. I'll gladly pay for a tip-off of Tim's visit to JPL. > "I was just following orders." Seriously, I stated my (sometime) position in the extreme form, as I am wont to do. I find it helps to clarify the issues and avoids the thicket of semantic quibbling. It's fairly clear when someone physically aggresses against one in the manner familiar to all libertarians..."your rights end where my nose begins" and all that usual stuff. Murder, rape, theft, etc. But what about aggression of other forms? We libertarians don't buy the notion that someone charging more than we want to pay is "economically aggressing" ("price gouging," "ripping us off," etc.), but many do. I view nearly anyone who works for an agency that is threatening me or extorting me to be essentially as culpable as the instigators themselves. In my admittedly extreme view, killing IRS agents would be justifiable in my moral sense (whatever that really is, a subject I'll ignore for now). Yes, some nice folks may get zapped, but that is true of many retaliatory attacks (collateral damage, though Rothbard has a rather different view than this). After the first few hundred IRS agents got killed, perhaps their ranks would dwindle. Perhaps after a few arson fires destroy their offices, they'll have a hard time getting accomplices to work in them. Perhaps their friends will start keeping a safe distance, and only getting in their cars after they've been safely revved up. I'm not any angrier tonight at the IRS than I ever am, in case you're wondering if I have it in for them for some reason. Nope, they just neatly exemplify the point that there are no innoncents, that those who cooperate with aggressors are themselves aggressors. Besides, the death of 1000 government workers would only be comparable to the nation's highway death toll for a single week....and would be a whole lot more educational and motivational. --Tim May (this post was not a joke, for the seriousness-impaired of you) -- .......................................................................... Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA | black markets, collapse of governments. Higher Power: 2^756839 | Public Key: PGP and MailSafe available. Note: I put time and money into writing this posting. I hope you enjoy it. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Oct 93 02:54:12 GMT From: sjw@liberty.demon.co.uk (Stephen J. Whitrow) Subject: burglary survival From: Mark Grant >> Mace, >> stun guns, key chain weapons, and even crowd control grenades can be purchased >> by the average citizen (at least in PA). Any comments? >> Sean >Shame they're all illegal in the UK. If I remember correctly, they're classed >as Section 5 firearms, along with automatic rifles, SMGs, machineguns, etc. Yes, I had one of those little "stun guns" a few years ago. A few inches long, and worked off 1.5 volt batteries. The cops came round and confiscated it, saying it was classed as a "firearm" due to the fact that it could discharge a noxious substance (electricity). They gave me a receipt, but after seeing my MP I was never given any compensation, even though the "guns" were not illegal when I bought it. Steve Whitrow sjw@liberty.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1993 23:00:14 -0400 From: tburns@gmuvax.gmu.edu (T. David Burns) Subject: CRYPTO:still no archive I know, I know, I should send it to Cypherpunks. ftp soda.berkeley.edu Connected to soda.berkeley.edu. 220 soda FTP server (Version wu-2.1c(17) Wed Sep 22 18:58:23 PDT 1993) ready. Name (soda.berkeley.edu:xiaozhou): anonymous 331 Guest login ok, send your complete e-mail address as password. Password: 230-Welcome to soda.berkeley.edu. We have recently upgraded our ftpd to 230-version 2.1c; it may still have some problems. 230-Mail bug reports to root@soda.berkeley.edu. 230- 230-Please read the file README 230- it was last modified on Wed Jun 2 17:02:13 1993 - 127 days ago 230 Guest login ok, access restrictions apply. ftp> cd pub/cypherpunks 250-Please read the file README 250- it was last modified on Wed May 19 11:37:12 1993 - 141 days ago 250-Please read the file README.DOWNLOAD 250- it was last modified on Thu Jul 22 20:08:42 1993 - 77 days ago 250-Please read the file README.EXPORT 250- it was last modified on Mon Jun 7 18:41:53 1993 - 122 days ago 250-Please read the file README.UPLOAD 250- it was last modified on Tue Jun 8 08:35:49 1993 - 121 days ago 250 CWD command successful. ftp> ls 200 PORT command successful. 150 Opening ASCII mode data connection for file list. crypto.ftp.sites clipper pgp misc remailer cryptanalysis incoming papers faq applications rants utilities projects patents README.DOWNLOAD README.EXPORT welcome.message README README.UPLOAD 226 Transfer complete. 209 bytes received in 0.034 seconds (6 Kbytes/s) ftp> cd rants 250 CWD command successful. ftp> ls 200 PORT command successful. 150 Opening ASCII mode data connection for file list. A_Cypherpunk's_Manifesto.gz From_Crossbows_to_Cryptography.gz The_Crypto_Anarchist_Manifesto.gz 226 Transfer complete. 99 bytes received in 0.01 seconds (9.2 Kbytes/s) ftp> cdup 250 CWD command successful. ftp> cd papers 250 CWD command successful. ftp> ls 200 PORT command successful. 150 Opening ASCII mode data connection for file list. shamir.abstracts.gz anderson's.rsa.trapdoor.can.be.broken.gz cfsdraft.ps.gz luc-public-key-paper.ps.gz shamir.birational.gz shamir.hard.poly.gz 226 Transfer complete. 150 bytes received in 0.02 seconds (7.3 Kbytes/s) ftp> bye ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Oct 93 20:10:42 PDT From: martino@morticia.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Martin R. Olah) Subject: CRYPTO: BRAND NAME CRIMES AGAINST NASA Tim May: >I view nearly anyone who works for an agency that is threatening me or extorting me to be essentially as culpable as the instigators I agree with this and the rest of your post. The problem is often one of degree. I'm not completely comfortable with my own position, but let's use it as an example. I work for a private company that contracts with JPL that contracts with Caltech, a semi-private instition, they tell me. Somewhere the NASA money gets in there. How about when I worked for a company that was trying to get a grant from the Dept. of Energy? Or when I worked in personal insurance? After all, auto insurance is mandatory, similar to taxtortion. What is the status of teachers in public schools? Or even private schools when they start a voucher system*? My point here is that our country (should I say planet?) is so intermingled regarding public and private that it's often difficult to draw a line. Someday I would like to be 100% clear of govt. influences, but until then I'll avoid bearded Extropians lurking at the front gate. - O Martin * I'm starting to come around to Tim Starr's views regarding the upcoming voucher vote. This is based a lot on the radio commercials of the opponents. Every time they say "this will destroy public schools, etc." I say Yeah! I dont't like the govt. getting involved in the private schools, but they don't really need an excuse if they want to anyway. ------------------------------ Date: 07 Oct 93 23:53:56 EDT From: Sandy <72114.1712@compuserve.com> Subject: BURGLARY SURVIVAL ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT Reply to: ssandfort@attmail.com . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Extropians, This is great! Two opportunities in one day to tell a story! We got the following suggestion from dV/dt: Or, do what the cops do -- keep an inexpensive knife or gun handy (and clean of your fingerprints, of course!) to plant on the suspect. To which Tim added: Cops do this, of course, but are sometimes undone by their partners or by other witnesses who see the gun being planted. A home owner, having shot in self defense, is unlikely to have any other witnesses around. (You may not even have to make sure it's clean or free of fingerprints. Just tell the cops who arrive that it's a gun the perp must've found inside the house before you shot him. Not as clean as the Krieger Option, as a DA and jury may not believe the circumstances.) Folks, you would be *amazed* at what DAs and juries would believe. When I was in law school one of my fellow students (named Tim, interestingly) was doing a legal internship with D.A.L.E., Drug Abuse Law Enforcement. He wanted to be a criminal attorney, so he figured working for the enemy for a while would help him later when he had to go against them. (Because of their excesses, DALE was eventually dissolved and replaced by the DEA.) They had a case where one of their guys shot a suspected drug dealer and then planted a "throw down" gun on him. The guy didn't die, but the DA didn't believe his story about the planted gun. When the suspect went to court, his clever lawyer had the gun and ammo examined by an independent expert. The examination revealed the DALE agent's *thumb prints* were on the butt end of each cartridges in the gun! That should have been it for the agent's credibility, right? Wrong. The agent said, yes, those were his thumb prints. When he had first arrested the suspect, he said, he frisked him and found the gun. To render it harmless, he unloaded it and put it and the ammo in his coat pocket. But then, the suspect started to resist arrest. To give himself *added protection* (even though he was armed with his own gun), the agent said he reloaded the gun *while he tussled with the suspect*. Then, he had to shoot the suspect in self-defense. Thus, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, it is obvious how the agent's thumb prints got on the backs of the shells. Yeh, right. But guess what? THEY BOUGHT IT! I mean, whom would you believe, some low-life, dope-dealing scum bag, or Officer Pigg? Well okay, who would your average white-bread jury believe? After they won the case, the local DALE office put out an office memo reminding all their personnel to be sure and wipe the prints off the ammo they use in their throw down guns. My friend, Tim, grabbed one of the memos for future use. Truth is *always* stranger than fiction. S a n d y >>>>>> Please send e-mail to: ssandfort@attmail.com <<<<<< ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Oct 93 20:58:17 PDT From: martino@morticia.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Martin R. Olah) Subject: BURGLARY/GUNS I'm strongly inclined to agree with those who feel that the only good gun is a loaded gun. Many acts of violence happen fast and unexpectedly. If a gun isn't loaded and within arms reach,(preferably in hand already) then it doesn't do much good. One possibility for confusing burglars is the "Purloined Letter" approach. Have so many realistic toy guns laying around that a real one will go unnoticed. I know it sounds goofy, but it just might be dumb enough to work. Anyway, at least one gun should be on hand and the others can be safely stashed away. Yes, accidents can happen, but I trust myself with a gun more than my local criminal element. And if you think I'm looking for the fastest way out of the gene-pool, guess again. Me and mine are gonna cool our heels in liquid nitrogen and bring our barbarian ways to the future. Undalay,UndalayBANG-BANG Yeehawww!!!!!!!!!!!!! - O Martin PS I hope they don't read my email before deciding to thaw me out. TO ALL FUTURE CRYO-COPS, I WUS ONLY JOKE'N!!! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Oct 93 00:10:03 EDT From: The Hawthorne Exchange Subject: Nightly Market Report The Hawthorne Exchange - HEx Nightly Market Report For more information on HEx, send email to HEx@sea.east.sun.com with the Subject info. News Summary as of: Fri Oct 8 00:10:02 EDT 1993 Newly Registered Reputations: (None) New Share Issues: (None) Share Splits: (None) Market Summary as of: Fri Oct 8 00:00:02 EDT 1993 Reputations of members of the Extropians mailing list: [ Note: Contact hex-request to have a reputation placed on this list. ] Total Shares Symbol Bid Ask Last Issued Outstanding ANTON .61 .63 .63 10000 1943 ARKU .18 .31 .30 10000 5301 BLAIR .01 1.20 30.00 10000 26 DEREK .06 .19 .19 100000 18330 DRS - .15 .15 10000 2600 DVDT 1.70 1.75 1.70 10000 10000 E .80 1.00 .90 10000 8011 ESR - - - - - FCP .06 1.30 1.50 80000 15345 GHG .02 .30 .20 10000 8180 GOBEL .01 .25 1.00 10000 767 GODII .01 1.00 - 10000 - H .40 .76 .76 30000 10290 HAM .60 .90 .90 20000 15918 HANNO .15 .24 - 10000 500 HFINN 1.50 6.00 .01 10000 1005 IMMFR .25 .70 .80 10000 1838 JFREE .02 .50 .50 10000 3200 JOHN .35 .40 - 10000 100 JPP .26 .29 .26 10000 3500 KARL 2.00 1.00 1.00 10000 1000 KNNTA .12 .19 .26 100000 9900 LEFTY .30 .40 .40 10000 4751 MARCR - - - - - MLINK - .01 .01 1000000 102602 MWM - 1.50 .01 10000 1260 N 5.00 9.00 9.00 10000 4750 P 22.50 25.00 1.50 1000000 94 PETER - .01 1.00 10000000 600 PRICE - .01 .01 10000000 1410 R .40 .80 .70 10000 6100 RJC .65 2.00 1.00 10000 5200 ROMA - - - - - RWHIT - - - - - SAMEER .30 .75 .61 10000 9810 SHAWN .55 .55 .01 10000 25 TIM 1.00 2.00 1.00 10000 1704 WILKEN 1.00 10.00 1.00 10000 102 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other reputations: Total Shares Symbol Bid Ask Last Issued Outstanding 1000 .05 .40 .20 10000 5000 110 .01 .10 .10 10000 1750 150 .01 .10 .10 10000 1750 1E6 .20 - .20 10000 8825 1E9 .01 .09 .20 10000 7000 200 .02 .20 .10 10000 5075 80 .01 - - 10000 - 90 .01 - .10 10000 2000 ACS .10 .15 .12 10000 3223 AI .01 .09 .10 10000 2000 ALCOR - .25 .20 10000 3675.00 ALTINST - .25 .05 10000 4000 AMARA - - - - - ANARCHY .20 .90 1.00 10000 1100 BIOPR .01 .09 .05 10000 3000 BITD .01 1.00 - 10000 - BLACK - .10 .10 100000 5000 BROOX - - - 10000 - CHUCK - - - - - CYPHP .23 .25 .50 10000 8900 D&M - - - 10000 - DC1000 - .10 - 10000 - DC200 - .15 .10 10000 1500 DC7000 - .10 - 10000 - DCFLOP .15 - .15 10000 6000 DRXLR .75 .90 .80 10000 4545 EXI .11 .25 1.54 10000 3025 FAB - - - - - GOD - .10 .10 10000 3000 GUNS - .90 1.00 10000 3900 HART - 1.99 2.00 10000 9000 HEINLN .28 .30 .30 10000 6600 HEX 100.00 101.00 100.00 10000 4088 KLAUS .05 .45 .45 100000 34004 KPJ - - - - - LEARY .01 .50 .20 10000 1000 LEF .10 .35 .10 10000 5214 LIST .40 10.00 .75 10000 5000 LP .25 .30 .50 10000 5625 LSOFT .50 1.00 .50 10000 9550 LURKR - .01 - 100000 - MED21 .01 .30 .30 10000 5399 MMORE - 1.25 .10 10000 3000 MNSKY - 1.80 - 10000 - MORE .38 1.25 .75 10000 2660 NEWTON - .50 .20 10000 1000 NLAW - .50 - 10000 - NNLAW - .50 - 10000 - NSS .02 .03 .01 10000 25 OCEAN .15 .18 .20 10000 6600 PENNY - .08 1.50 10000 2500 PGP - 1.00 1.00 100000 2100 PLANET .01 .02 .02 10000 4000 PPL .30 .45 .30 10000 4600 RAND .18 .20 .20 10000 3500 RAW - .05 - 10000 - SGP - - - 10000 - SSI .15 .20 .20 10000 5200 TCMAY .38 .40 .38 10000 6200 TRANS .01 .90 .60 10000 3211 VINGE .01 1.00 .75 10000 3449 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1993 00:08:03 -0400 From: "Perry E. Metzger" Subject: CRYPTO: BRAND NAME CRIMES AGAINST NASA Martin R. Olah says: > Tim May: > > > Blowing up a building full of NASA > engineers, while not something I want or plan to do, would not be > "first aggression" on my part, as they have stolen my money to build > their personal vision of a socialized space program. > > I'm just recouping my first 15 years of taxation, I'm a lowly > contractor, etc., rationalization, etc. I'll gladly pay for a > tip-off of Tim's visit to JPL. Violence accomplishes little or nothing. If a revolution comes, it will be largely in people's heads. I have no objections to using retaliatory force, but I feel its far more effective just to become a tax evader if you feel strongly about your money being taken instead of blowing things up. Tax evasion is fairly safe. Blowing things up won't get your money back and gets you talked about by people with guns who like using folks who blow up buildings for target practice. The most effective strategy to end the tyranny of the state is the zen strategy. Ask yourself the next time you are mad about what the government is doing to you, "Who is the Buddha that makes the grass green?" To be less cryptic, "who is the guy cooperating with them when he could be ignoring them. Not fighting -- ignoring." Overseas cryptobanks are an example of methodologies for ignoring the state. When you fight something, you aren't free of it. Since the state is a consentual hallucination, cease to consent, and you will be free. Perry Who still pays all his taxes because he'd rather live in New York and work for investment banks, but who realizes that freedom from the state is an airplane ride away should he ever really want it badly enough. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Oct 93 22:04:21 PDT From: martino@morticia.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Martin R. Olah) Subject: CRYPTO: BRAND NAME CRIMES AGAINST NASA >Perry Who still pays all his taxes because he'd rather live in New York and work for investment banks, but who realizes that freedom from the state is an airplane ride away should he ever really want it badly enough. Do you mean freedom from The State, or freedom from THIS state? If it's not a secret I sure would like to know where this place is. - O Martin Who is a very good boy because he's got no where else to go, but might be too acclimated to go anyway. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Oct 93 22:27:30 -0700 From: jamie@netcom.com (Jamie Dinkelacker) Subject: GUNS, SOC: Burglary and countermeasures The conversation continues, >>I think I would much rather have my stereo, computer, etc., rather >>than give them up, even at the cost of the burglar's life, ... dV/dt > >While I enjoyed this post very much, especially the part about >stealing part of one's past life, I wonder where the proviso "let the >punishment fit the crime" fits into this? My intuition is that >deviating from this wisdom has its own downside. If my intuition is >correct, then the spontaneous order induced (via its incentive >structure) by killing VCR thiefs may deviate from the one we might >most prefer. > >-Pete Maiming/eradicating the thief isn't a point of punishment for stealing the VCR. Instead, it's for invading the home, being a threatening presence, and putting life in the here and now at risk. Catching someone with stolen goods might have a "punishment fit the crime" much less intense, but invading someone's home, IMHO is a VERY serious crime, and one that we can't depend on the state -- or its agents -- to protect us from. Ergo, reason to escalate and get ultra nasty, preferable with superior firepower. -- ................................ Jamie Dinkelacker Palo Alto CA Jamie@netcom.com 415.941.4782 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1993 23:23:11 -0700 From: John K Clark Subject: free will On Wed, 06 Oct 93 19:22:40 GMT price@price.demon.co.uk (Michael Clive Price) Wrote: > There is no connection between (free-)will and many-worlds. >Or between free-will and determinism, quantum >randomness, chaos theory etc I strongly suspect you are correct.The only reservation I have is in the"etc". >... they [ will / free-will ] are indistinguishable from each >other. Therefore they merit only one label - will. Good point, after all, what in the world would unfree-will mean? > To test another for consciousness ask them about themselves >(eg how are you feeling?) along the lines of the Turing test. Gee , I never dreamed I'd ever be on this side of the argument , makes me feel rather uncomfortable . The Turing Test was not really invented by Turing, it is very old and is used by all of us constantly , I am sure you are using it at this moment and I am sure I am the subject of the test. It is the only way we have( or should have) of judging people, by their actions . That's why I never had any patience with the anti AI crowd when they tried to find flaws in the test, it may not be perfect but its worked very well for a long time and its all we have. Having said that I must nevertheless admit that strictly speaking The Turing test is for intelligence not consciousness. Personally I am convinced that the two are inseparable but I would have a difficult time disproving the statement "I am the only conscious being in the universe". Thanks a lot for your feedback. John K Clark johnkc@well.sf.ca.us ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Oct 93 23:35:28 -0700 From: kwatson@netcom.com (Kennita Watson) Subject: burglary survival pulling the trigger, let alone a civillian. There are many non-lethal, and very effective weapons on the market, that require no permit to carry. Mace, stun guns, key chain weapons, and even crowd control grenades can be purchased by the average citizen (at least in PA). Any comments? Except that I happen to know that in CA a permit is required to carry Mace, no. Kennita Watson | "Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc -- we gladly kwatson@netcom.com | feast on those who would subdue us. Not just pretty HEx: KNNTA | words...." -- The Addams Family ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Oct 93 23:46:53 -0700 From: kwatson@netcom.com (Kennita Watson) Subject: BURGLARY/GUNS . . . the burglar does not know whether or not the gun is loaded or unloaded when he's looking down the barrel. Sean, get a gun, look down the barrel (using a mirror isn't a bad idea), then come back and tell us what you saw. Revolvers are obvious, but even with autoloaders you can usually see the round. (God, it looks BIG!) In that case, would it be a good idea to keep it loaded with blanks? Kennita Watson | "Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc -- we gladly kwatson@netcom.com | feast on those who would subdue us. Not just pretty HEx: KNNTA | words...." -- The Addams Family ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Oct 93 00:36:24 PDT From: nobody@shell.portal.com Subject: CRYPTO: BRAND NAME CRIMES AGAINST NASA > Ask yourself the next time you are mad about what the > government is doing to you, "Who is the Buddha that makes the grass > green?" To be less cryptic, "who is the guy cooperating with them when > he could be ignoring them. Not fighting -- ignoring." Bingo. The wimps who pay off the extortion racket (including myself at times, alas) are contributing at least as much to the continued extortion, as are the parasites who live off the extorter's favors (also practically impossible to avoid in our middle class welfare state). Bombing NASA might give me a warm & fuzzy feeling of revenge inside, but as you point out it doesn't bring my money back, and it only serves to legitimize the coercive means of the state. Nevertheless, there are some specific situations where a sound strategy of PPL enforcement against extortion rackets could be effective. Just as amateur extorters in the pre-digicash era must rely on physical points of collection, so must professional extortion bureaucracies, such as the new regional "contribution collectors" being set up for the Hillary Health Plan. Against these vulnerable points we can use the random-severe-punishment method well known in law enforcement. Display of the results of this enforcement on TV would also be a quite effective means of communication, dramatizing the life and death nature of medicine, the depth of opposition to putting these choices into the hands of coercive bureaucracies, and the Orwellianism of calling taxes "contributions", like no written protest could do. In this case "preemptive" coercion might not only save you from future gunpoint "contributions", it might also save your life by preventing siutations where medical care you wanted to pay for gets banned or rationed in favor of somebody else's more politically correct malady. ------------------------------ End of Extropians Digest V93 #280 *********************************