From extropians-request@extropy.org Thu Sep 30 21:00:22 1993 Return-Path: Received: from usc.edu by chaph.usc.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1+ucs-3.0) id AA04760; Thu, 30 Sep 93 21:00:21 PDT Errors-To: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Received: from ude.tim.ia.ung.gnu.ai.mit.ed (ude.tim.ia.ung.gnu.ai.mit.edu) by usc.edu (4.1/SMI-3.0DEV3-USC+3.1) id AA05838; Thu, 30 Sep 93 21:00:09 PDT Errors-To: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Received: by ude.tim.ia.ung.gnu.ai.mit.edu id AA20244; Thu, 30 Sep 93 23:56:22 EDT Received: from news.panix.com by ude.tim.ia.ung.gnu.ai.mit.edu via TCP with SMTP id AA20239; Thu, 30 Sep 93 23:56:04 EDT Received: by news.panix.com id AA08194 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for exi-maillist@ung.gnu.ai.mit.edu); Thu, 30 Sep 1993 23:55:58 -0400 Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1993 23:55:58 -0400 Message-Id: <199310010355.AA08194@news.panix.com> To: Extropians@extropy.org From: Extropians@extropy.org Subject: Extropians Digest X-Extropian-Date: October 1, 373 P.N.O. [03:55:49 UTC] Reply-To: extropians@extropy.org Errors-To: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Status: RO Extropians Digest Fri, 1 Oct 93 Volume 93 : Issue 273 Today's Topics: BASICS: Death [1 msgs] Burning your Health Card [1 msgs] GUNS: Buy Now [1 msgs] GUNS: Buy Now [2 msgs] HEALTH: Burning your Health Card [1 msgs] LEGAL: Phil Zimmerman needs help [1 msgs] MAGAZINES: Extropy, Wired, and World Wide Web (London) [1 msgs] MEDICAL: DIY? [2 msgs] PGP: Zimmermann interview excerpt (short) [3 msgs] PGP: Zimmermann interview excerpt (short) [1 msgs] PUNS: Y'know what really frosts me... [1 msgs] Sophistry [3 msgs] Syrian Counterfeit Money Wanted! [5 msgs] Syrian Counterfeit Money Wanted! [2 msgs] Administrivia: No admin msg. Approximate Size: 51430 bytes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 30 Sep 93 13:19:45 PDT From: tcmay@netcom.com (Timothy C. May) Subject: Sophistry (I hope I am not engaging in sophistty by changing the name of this thread from "BASICS: Death" to "Sophistry.") > dV/dt writes: > > You must have missed last week's thread. "Sophistry" isn't in the > > dictionary. I haven't checked this myself, but Tim May gave a very > > persuasive argument why it couldn't possibly be in there. Unfortunately I > > can't remember the particulars of his reasoning, but it sounded good at the > > time. > > I don't remember reading Tim May's bit on sophistry, but I'm sure his > reasoning was deceptively subtle and his argument correct in form and > appearance but actually invalid. > -- > Mike Linksvayer mlinksva@netcom.com What I retroductively explicated was the counterfactual that sophistic claims to ab initio validity deconstruct their own foundations and valorize obfuscation and grandiloquence. -Tim, who has to listen to many UC Santa Cruz sociology major blithering about "valorizing the patriarchy" and "deconstructing the Western canon." I'd like to use my cannons to deconstruct _them_. -- .......................................................................... Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA | black markets, collapse of governments. Higher Power: 2^756839 | Public Key: PGP and MailSafe available. Note: I put time and money into writing this posting. I hope you enjoy it. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Sep 93 16:40:33 EDT From: Brian.Hawthorne@east.sun.com (Brian Holt Hawthorne - SunSelect Strategic Marketing) Subject: Syrian Counterfeit Money Wanted! > * what are these "Federal Reserve Notes"? > > Not redeemable in gold or silver, as the Constitution clearly requires > for something to be a "dollar." (Don't believe me? Check it out.) Okay, I did. Here are all the mentions of 'gold', 'silver' and 'dollar' in the U.S. Constitution and its 27 Amendments: Article 1 Sect. 9. The migration or importation of such persons as any of the states now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a tax or duty may be imposed on such importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each person. This one expired in 1808, and isn't relevant anyway. Article 1, Section 10: Sect. 10. No state shall enter into any treaty, alliance, or confederation; grant letters of marque and reprisal; coin money; emit bills of credit; make any thing but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts; pass any bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law impairing the obligation of contracts, or grant any title of nobility. This one says that no state shall make any thing but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts nor coin money. As far as I know, there are no state issued currencies at all, only the federal one. Is there something else you meant? > Federal Reserve Notes are not Constitutionally valid--the courts have > refused (wisely, for their own viability) to address this issue. While there may be relevant case law that I am unaware of, I see nothing that restricts either the federal government (the United States) or a private consortium of banks from making any thing they want a tender in payment of debts. Article 1, Section 8 does say that "Congress shall have power... To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures; To provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the United States;" but it does not appear to limit this power to Congress. Does anyone know if there are any relevant Supreme Court decisions which might indicate that the interpretation of the 9th and 10th amendments means that indicates that Article 1, Section 8 should be read as "Congress alone shall have the power"? > The growing ease with which paper money can be counterfeited leads > many of us to believe a conversion to government-controlled digital > money is coming. The national medical care card could just as easily > be the "government services" card, with cash outlawed. > > Duncan Frissell has argued this is implausible. I hope he's right, but > I fear it'll happen anyway. Buy your Thornes now! If this does come about I may have to move HEx to a secure and untraceable location, though. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Sep 93 14:11:41 PDT From: tcmay@netcom.com (Timothy C. May) Subject: Syrian Counterfeit Money Wanted! Rowan wrote: > > > > Not redeemable in gold or silver, as the Constitution clearly requires > > for something to be a "dollar." (Don't believe me? Check it out.) > > Okay, I did. Here are all the mentions of 'gold', 'silver' and 'dollar' > in the U.S. Constitution and its 27 Amendments: > > Article 1 > Sect. 9. The migration or importation of such persons as any of > the states now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be > prohibited by the Congress prior to the year one thousand eight > hundred and eight, but a tax or duty may be imposed on such > importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each person. > > This one expired in 1808, and isn't relevant anyway. > > Article 1, Section 10: > Sect. 10. No state shall enter into any treaty, alliance, or > confederation; grant letters of marque and reprisal; coin money; > emit bills of credit; make any thing but gold and silver coin a > tender in payment of debts; pass any bill of attainder, ex post > facto law, or law impairing the obligation of contracts, or grant > any title of nobility. > > This one says that no state shall make any thing but gold and silver > coin a tender in payment of debts nor coin money. As far as I know, there > are no state issued currencies at all, only the federal one. > Is there something else you meant? Article 1, Section 8: (which I just saw you cite later in your post...) "To coin money, regulate the value thereof,..." In 1792, the dollar was picked to be the standard coin and its value set in terms of weights of gold and silver. The part cited above about "make any thing but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts..." I take to be fully consistent with my point. That is, the Constitution defined money to be "coin" and forbade any state from doing an end-run around this requirement that debts be payable in gold and silver coin. And until the 1930s, paper currency (even Fraudulent Reserve Notes) were of course redeemable in either gold or silver, with the dollar at that time being defined as 1/35th of an ounce of gold (or one ounce of silver, hence the wide circulation of silver dollars). The FRS notes then, after FDR and Congress illegalized gold ownership, became "Silver Certificates," redeemable in silver. This all ended in 1964, when silver coins were taken out of circulation and FRS notes were only redeemable for other FRS notes. > While there may be relevant case law that I am unaware of, I see nothing > that restricts either the federal government (the United States) or > a private consortium of banks from making any thing they want a tender in > payment of debts. I think your interpretation is wrong here: legal tender is defined in terms of FRS. We may agree to exchange items by using Thornes, informally, but a contract denominated in Thornes will not be upheld. This gets into the meaning of a "contract" and what legal tender is. The part written on all FRS notes, "This note is legal tender for all debts public and private" means that I can present FRS notes to the local gas station, to the bookstore, etc., in settlement of a debt and they have to take them...they can't insist on being paid in kwatloos. I'm not saying this is right, just my understanding of the law. As to alternative currencies and their legal status, there are several god books on free banking and private currencies. Laissez-Faire Books carries them, and Perry mentions them frequently. -Tim -- .......................................................................... Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA | black markets, collapse of governments. Higher Power: 2^756839 | Public Key: PGP and MailSafe available. Note: I put time and money into writing this posting. I hope you enjoy it. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Sep 93 14:14:09 -0700 From: freeman@maspar.com (Jay R. Freeman) Subject: Sophistry To: extropians@extropy.org Subject: Re: Sophistry Tim May says: > -Tim, who has to listen to many UC Santa Cruz sociology major > blithering about "valorizing the patriarchy" and "deconstructing the > Western canon." I'd like to use my cannons to deconstruct _them_. Since Tim seems to have a personal peeve about the desirability of outsiders invading overthrown governments, there to practice violent deconstruction, it seems that we must label him a carp-pet fragger... -- Jay Freeman, who actually thought that "sophistry" comes after "frosh histry" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1993 17:27:15 -0400 From: "Perry E. Metzger" Subject: Syrian Counterfeit Money Wanted! Brian Holt Hawthorne - SunSelect Strategic Marketing says: > Does anyone know > if there are any relevant Supreme Court decisions which might indicate that > the interpretation of the 9th and 10th amendments means that indicates > that Article 1, Section 8 should be read as "Congress alone shall have the > power"? I don't know about that, but I do know this: the first legal tender laws were declared unconstitutional by the supreme court when it had seven members. Congress immediately raised the number of justices to nine, and the two new members appointed overturned the ruling when it was brought forward again mere months later. Perry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1993 17:46:06 -0400 From: "Perry E. Metzger" Subject: Syrian Counterfeit Money Wanted! Timothy C. May says: > And until the 1930s, paper currency (even Fraudulent Reserve Notes) > were of course redeemable in either gold or silver, with the dollar at > that time being defined as 1/35th of an ounce of gold (or one ounce of > silver, hence the wide circulation of silver dollars). I thought that it was originally 1/20th of an ounce of gold and was devalued several times, reaching 1/35th of an ounce about the time Nixon took us completely off the gold standard. Am I wrong? > This all ended in 1964, when silver coins were taken out of > circulation and FRS notes were only redeemable for other FRS notes. I have heard that two dollar bills were "U.S. Notes" until they were taken out of circulation, and that FRNs were redeemable for them during the 1960s. Also, FRNs were redeemable for gold by foreign governments and banks until Nixon took us off the gold standard in the early '70s. > I think your interpretation is wrong here: legal tender is defined in > terms of FRS. We may agree to exchange items by using Thornes, > informally, but a contract denominated in Thornes will not be upheld. Not true. Contracts may be denominated in any way you like. You can, however, be forced to take FRNs under some circumstances. > As to alternative currencies and their legal status, there are several > god books on free banking and private currencies. Laissez-Faire Books > carries them, and Perry mentions them frequently. "The Theory of Free Banking" by Selgin is my favorite, but they have several others. Perry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1993 14:46:30 -0800 From: lefty@apple.com (Lefty) Subject: Sophistry Tim sez: >What I retroductively explicated was the counterfactual that sophistic >claims to ab initio validity deconstruct their own foundations and >valorize obfuscation and grandiloquence. In the immortal woords of Bob and Ray, "Well, _that's_ a paraphrastic bit of casuistry!" -- Lefty (lefty@apple.com) C:.M:.C:., D:.O:.D:. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Sep 93 15:16:40 PDT From: thamilto@pcocd2.intel.com (Tony Hamilton - FES ERG~) Subject: Syrian Counterfeit Money Wanted! > This one says that no state shall make any thing but gold and silver > coin a tender in payment of debts nor coin money. As far as I know, there > are no state issued currencies at all, only the federal one. I do not know if they were federal or state, but the Carson City mint in Nevada (when it was operational way back when) issued their own "flavor" of silver dollars. Carson City dollars are collector's items now, but I believe they are still technically legal currency. I just don't recall if it was a state or federal mint. For those who may wonder why it even existed, Virginia City, NV (close to Carson City) was once the largest source of silver in the states, maybe even the world. Tony Hamilton thamilto@pcocd2.intel.com HAM on HEx ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1993 17:21:40 -0500 From: pgf@srl01.cacs.usl.edu (Phil G. Fraering) Subject: GUNS: Buy Now I'd like to say, that in general, I would prefer guns to knives for personal defense. Of course, if the laws allowed it, I'd prob. carry some sort of sword ;-) (rapier, or maybe short Roman style...) pgf ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Sep 93 18:30:56 EDT From: Andy Wilson Subject: BASICS: Death Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1993 11:33:28 -0700 From: dkrieger@synopsys.com (Dave Krieger) >From: GOFFJ@sonoma.edu >Subject: BASICS: Death >X-Extropian-Date: Remailed on September 30, 373 P.N.O. [03:24:31 UTC] >X-Message-Number: #93-9-1677 > > I need an immediate completely direct definition on the arbitrary and >completely undeniably subjective word called sophistry You must have missed last week's thread. "Sophistry" isn't in the dictionary. I haven't checked this myself, but Tim May gave a very persuasive argument why it couldn't possibly be in there. Unfortunately I can't remember the particulars of his reasoning, but it sounded good at the time. dV/dt sophistry (soph ist ry; sof i str ) n., pl. - ries. 1 n. a subtle, tricky, superficially plausible, but generally fallacious method of reasoning. 2 n. a false argument; sophism. Etymology: ME sophistrie MF, equiv. to sophistre SOPHISTER - ie - Y 3 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1993 17:30:12 -0500 From: pgf@srl01.cacs.usl.edu (Phil G. Fraering) Subject: Burning your Health Card Some more questions: I've been to the doctor a lot more than normal this year; I could go twice as much and it still wouldn't cost as much as my _one_ dental visit last year. Guess what isn't covered? Also, with the emphasis on prevention, will the planners be willing to pay for my exercise club? New bicycle? (long story about broken and missized replacement frames, the list really _doesn't_ want to hear this, trust me). Those could _really_ improve my health a great deal, and cost them less down the line. Of course, the taxes to pay for it would just end up deep-sixing the family business and putting all four of us on welfare. A real cost- cutting and prudent operation if I've ever seen one! I guess I'll just try going on the "Old Guy in the Woods" health care plan. Phil ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1993 17:38:20 -0500 From: pgf@srl01.cacs.usl.edu (Phil G. Fraering) Subject: PGP: Zimmermann interview excerpt (short) Romana, believe it or not, people who don't believe in cryonics have civil rights and also are capable of making great contributions to extropian causes. (Let me see... how can I anonymously remail money?) pgfg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1993 19:03:04 -0400 From: "Perry E. Metzger" Subject: PGP: Zimmermann interview excerpt (short) Phil G. Fraering says: > Romana, believe it or not, people who don't believe in > cryonics have civil rights and also are capable of > making great contributions to extropian causes. The question, I think, is more one of what sort of individual goes to a mans house, talks to his friends, drinks his wine, goes off, and makes fun of the lot of them, especially given that he's had enough personal contact to know that they aren't crazy. Wrong I could understand, but "nuts"? .pm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Sep 93 16:15:24 PDT From: tcmay@netcom.com (Timothy C. May) Subject: Syrian Counterfeit Money Wanted! Perry Metzger writes: > > I thought that it was originally 1/20th of an ounce of gold and was > devalued several times, reaching 1/35th of an ounce about the time > Nixon took us completely off the gold standard. Am I wrong? It was 1/20th of an ounce of gold for a very long time, possibly dating back to the early days of the country. When it became 1/35th of an ounce I don't know, but I know it was that level for many years (even when the market prices of the dollar had dropped to less than 1/100th of an ounce of gold...part of the reason the gold reserves left the country in the 1960s). > I have heard that two dollar bills were "U.S. Notes" until they were > taken out of circulation, and that FRNs were redeemable for them > during the 1960s. This sounds as phony as a two dollar bill! Actually, I've gotten two dollar bills as recently as several years back. I didn't read the fine print. A friend of mine, Dick Gruen, has a really neat thing he does. He gets a stack of pristine two dollar bills (dollar bills in a pinch) from the bank and makes _pads_ out of them, with the special rubber pad glue and some very heavy plates to squash the bills compactly, He slathers on the glue, lets it dry, and thus has pads. In stores, he takes out the pad and tears off the bills. When surprised clerks as him what he's doing and what they are, he replies, "I print them myself." I've been meaning to do this for several years now, and perhaps now I will. -Tim May -- .......................................................................... Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA | black markets, collapse of governments. Higher Power: 2^756839 | Public Key: PGP and MailSafe available. Note: I put time and money into writing this posting. I hope you enjoy it. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Sep 93 16:29:35 -0700 From: cappello@cs.ucsb.edu (Peter Cappello) Subject: HEALTH: Burning your Health Card >More to the point, why don't we abolish hospitals? Perhaps the following 2 analogies merit scrutiny? Hospitals are the "mainframes" of health facilities. HMOs are the "mainframes" of medical organizations. -Pete ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Sep 93 16:34:06 PDT From: tcmay@netcom.com (Timothy C. May) Subject: Syrian Counterfeit Money Wanted! Tony Hamilton sez: > I do not know if they were federal or state, but the Carson City mint in > Nevada (when it was operational way back when) issued their own "flavor" of > silver dollars. Carson City dollars are collector's items now, but I believe > they are still technically legal currency. > > I just don't recall if it was a state or federal mint. For those who may > wonder why it even existed, Virginia City, NV (close to Carson City) was > once the largest source of silver in the states, maybe even the world. Carson City was just another mint, like Denver, Philadelphia, and San Francisco. They may've had a special mint mark, but I've forgotten the details, and none of the silver dollars I now own has a "cc" mark. All silver dollars remain legal currency, though the market value of the silver and the numismatic value of the coins exceeds the $1 face value. In the 1950s and early 60s, my father occasionally brought home a silver dollar he got at the local bank. I held on to these until early 1980, when I sold them all at $25 apiece--the height of the tulip bulb market for silver and gold. (I had a Krugerrand and decided to sell in January 1980 and went down to the local coin store--the "Golden Cache" for you Apple employees--where I found a long line snaking out into the parking lot. I asked the guy next to me if he knew how much they were paying for Kruggerands...everybody's head turned and several voices cried out, "Are you kidding! Nobody's selling--we're all buying!" Needless to say, I accepted an offer of $800 for my Kruggerand and the buyer counted out crisp $100 bills. That was nearly the top of the market, and gold later plunged to $200 or thereabouts.) --Tim May -- .......................................................................... Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA | black markets, collapse of governments. Higher Power: 2^756839 | Public Key: PGP and MailSafe available. Note: I put time and money into writing this posting. I hope you enjoy it. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Sep 93 16:38:37 PDT From: tcmay@netcom.com (Timothy C. May) Subject: PGP: Zimmermann interview excerpt (short) > Romana, believe it or not, people who don't believe in > cryonics have civil rights and also are capable of > making great contributions to extropian causes. > > (Let me see... how can I anonymously remail money?) > > pgfg Cryonicists may not have as much financial clout as you think: their asses are frozen. -K!vFP ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Sep 93 17:11:05 -0700 From: kwatson@netcom.com (Kennita Watson) Subject: PGP: Zimmermann interview excerpt (short) Cryonicists may not have as much financial clout as you think: their asses are frozen. OUCH!!! Kennita Watson | "Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc -- we gladly kwatson@netcom.com | feast on those who would subdue us. Not just pretty HEx: KNNTA | words...." -- The Addams Family ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1993 17:44:17 -0700 From: dkrieger@Synopsys.COM (Dave Krieger) Subject: PUNS: Y'know what really frosts me... >From: tcmay@netcom.com (Timothy C. May) >Subject: PGP: Zimmermann interview excerpt (short) >X-Extropian-Date: Remailed on September 30, 373 P.N.O. [23:38:21 UTC] >X-Message-Number: #93-9-1758 > >> Romana, believe it or not, people who don't believe in >> cryonics have civil rights and also are capable of >> making great contributions to extropian causes. >> >> pgfg > >Cryonicists may not have as much financial clout as you think: their >asses are frozen. > >-K!vFP Snow big deal to come up with puns on coldness, but as a good neo-Kelvinist, icy no reason to correct the views of those who think it's not cool to be frozen; I just chill out and keep a cool head, knowing they'll be left out in the cold while I cool my heels in liquid nitrogen (which, as you know, is just Frigid-Aire). I take cold comfort in knowing there'll be dewar consequences for him who doesn't freeze his head to save his ass. "Many are cold, but few are frozen," as the book says; you thaw it coming but you still didn't sign up. Wipe your tears away, yes, dry your ice; when you shiver in the icy grip of Death, you'll cry:O, freeze a jolly good fellow, freeze a jolly good fellow..., but that hoary old rime will cut no ice with the Grim Reefer, nor melt His cold heart. It's a cold, cruel world. Now let's put this thread on ice and start over with a clean sleet. dV/dt ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Sep 93 18:07:29 PDT From: martino@gomez.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Martin R. Olah) Subject: GUNS: Buy Now Regarding ammunition: Cor Bon is a high velocity hollowpoint that theoretically (and several times in practice) has an extremely high one shot stop ability. It's very expensive and didn't function reliably in my gun, with the slide not returning fully, and preventing the next shot. Hydra-Shok is a hollow point with a center post designed to mushroom the bullet under hydrostatic pressure. I haven't heard bad things about it previous to Perry's mention. This may be based on the 147 grain bullets that were fashionable with police departments until they realized the velocity was too low to be very effective. Black Talon is a hollow point in which the jacket opens into a large jagged pinwheel. These function reliably in my gun so I use them. Glazer and Magsafe bullets are actually copper cups filled with very small pellets that give up their energy very quickly on impact. They are used to prevent ricochets and penetrating shots as well as increase stopping power to soft targets. I use them in .380 caliber, but they are NOT good penetrators by design. I may give them up as I've finally found a hollowpoint that functions in my gun. There is also a semi-secret new bullet design in existence. This is a steel cylinder with a sharpened forward edge. Apparently it does very well against body armour and is only available to certain government agencies, possibly being used in Waco. If the bullet could be engineered into a miniature ram-jet it could be even more fun. Regarding gun purchases: You CAN buy mail order guns through the assistance of a Federal Firearms License holder. Shotgun News (available in many magazine shops) has a large listing of guns with some very good prices. Your local gun dealer may order guns for a fee, unless they are offering the same weapon for more. Gun shows can also be good if you already know your prices. Most convenient of course is wait for a sale at a good local gun store. Regarding Glocks: Apparently a very good gun, but I prefer having a manual safety. The guns I like tend to be unpopular (or nonexistant) due to the features I want. - O Martin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1993 18:13:31 -0700 From: 155yegan@jove.dnet.measurex.com (egan_t@measurex.com) Subject: MEDICAL: DIY? Howdy, Several recent threads on this list and other places have sparked an tiny idea in the lump of tissue that I use for a brain. The threads are: 1) Galt-type strike 2) The US 'health-care crisis' 3) the usual Extropian self-transformation meme 4) the even more usual (albeit regrettable) tendency of the State to impose it's standards on me and mine (cf. firearms,censorship) The idea is: Suppose doctors, possibly followed by other health professionals, go on strike because of any of a number of reasons? Presently, neither myself or my family require any medical assistance at this time. However, as we all know, this can change. So, given the fact that I have very little desire (or time or money) to become an MD myself, what resources are available to me to learn about medical care beyond the first-aid level? Please bear in mind number 4 above may make it difficult to acquire these resources in some dark variant of possible futures. Still pushing air in and out, Terry Egan (egan_t@measurex.com) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Sep 93 18:42:25 -0700 From: kwatson@netcom.com (Kennita Watson) Subject: MEDICAL: DIY? Suppose doctors, possibly followed by other health professionals, go on strike because of any of a number of reasons? Presently, neither myself or my family require any medical assistance at this time. However, as we all know, this can change. So, given the fact that I have very little desire (or time or money) to become an MD myself, what resources are available to me to learn about medical care beyond the first-aid level? My first thought would be to hie me to a medical library and get hold of some books before either a) the doctors burned them; or b) the government seized them. My second is that there are magazines and books on survivalism and self-sufficiency that probably go beyond the first-aid level, and it might be a good idea to get some back issues before they ran out. My third is that a veterinarian might be helpful, either for rudimentary training or for pointers to information or both. Fourth -- doing it the hard way, quite a bit could probably be gleaned by careful study of an encyclopedia. Fifth -- find an herbalist, and other sources on folk remedies; many of them actually do work. Sixth -- pool together with some people and smuggle in your own private physician/midwife/whatever from a foreign country, preferably one who's willing to teach. Seventh -- find yourself a (black-market? foreign?) source for medical supplies (syringes, medications, anesthetics, antibiotics, etc.). Those are my ideas so far -- in the order I thought of them, not necessarily the order in which they should be executed, or the order of their likelihood to gain you a given level of competence. Kennita ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Oct 93 02:03:11 GMT From: whitaker@eternity.demon.co.uk (Russell Earl Whitaker) Subject: LEGAL: Phil Zimmerman needs help Duncan says: > R.>It is not known if there are other targets. Whether or > R.>not an indictment is returned in this case, the legal bills will be > R.>astronomical. > > Note the benefits of being judgment proof. The ability to tell the US > Attorney, "I've got two words for you -- Fuck and You." Costs nothing. > Always judgment proof yourself prior to engaging in hazardous conduct. > ? Duncan, what is "judgment proof"? I'm most curious, as I'm sure are many others here. > When an indictment seems imminent, change legal regimes. You can move > they can't (without declaring war). > ? Question-begging. ;-) Pray tell, *do* elaborate... :-) > Duncan Frissell > > Marc Rich did it. You can too. > --- WinQwk 2.0b#1165 > > What did Marc Rich do? Russell Russell Earl Whitaker whitaker@eternity.demon.co.uk Communications Editor AMiX: RWhitaker EXTROPY: The Journal of Transhumanist Thought Board member, Extropy Institute (ExI) Co-organizer, 1st European Conference on Computers, Freedom and Privacy, London, 20 November 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Oct 93 02:54:44 GMT From: russell@eternity.demon.co.uk (Russell Earl Whitaker) Subject: MAGAZINES: Extropy, Wired, and World Wide Web (London) *Extropy: The Journal of Transhumanist Thought* is available in London's Picadilly Circus branch of Tower Records, at 3.09 pounds sterling. Tower's large magazine selection is located in the basement. For Londoners, this means that the easiest way to get there is to take a tube to Picadilly Circus Station, and enter Tower from the underground entrance directly in the basement. Closing time is midnight. It's also worth mentioning that *Unbounding the Future*, by Eric Drexler and Gayle Pergamit, is available there in the American trade paperback edition (Quill) for 7.99 pounds sterling. *Extropy* will soon be available in the Cambridge branch of Forbidden Planet. It's already available in the Edinburgh Forbidden Planet, for all you Scottish extropians. :-) Oh, yes: *Extropy*, as usual, is available in London's Forbidden Planet. I'd recommend that Londoners pick up, while you're in there, the latest *Wired* (issue 4), which, among other articles, has an interesting piece by our very own Sandy Sandfort on the impact of informatics on Singapore, alongside William Gibson's slant on the same subject. Also take a look at *The World Wide Web*, the UK's first native Internet magazine. "WWW" was taken shamelessly from the CERN hypertext project of the same name, but Tim Berners-Lee, who heads the WWW Project, didn't seem to mind, as he had a piece in the magazine of the same name. I've spoken today to Ivan Pope, the editor (ivan@ukartnet.demon.co.uk), and was told that the magazine has no official links at all to the CERN project. UK extropians: pick it up! It's only 3 pounds, and a bargain at that. Chock-a-block with useful info on the UK networking scene. Forbidden Planet London is located at 71 New Oxford Street, near the Tottenham Court Road tube station. Telephone is 071-379-6042. If *Extropy* or *Wired* is sold out, then call our distributors - Counter Productions - direct on 071-274-9009. Russell Russell Earl Whitaker whitaker@eternity.demon.co.uk Communications Editor AMiX: RWhitaker EXTROPY: The Journal of Transhumanist Thought Board member, Extropy Institute (ExI) Co-organizer, 1st European Conference on Computers, Freedom and Privacy, London, 20 November 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1993 22:58:20 -0400 From: "Perry E. Metzger" Subject: GUNS: Buy Now Martin R. Olah says: > Regarding ammunition: > > Hydra-Shok is a hollow point with a center post designed to mushroom > the bullet under hydrostatic pressure. I haven't heard bad things > about it previous to Perry's mention. This may be based on the 147 > grain bullets that were fashionable with police departments until > they realized the velocity was too low to be very effective. I just realized that although I'd heard bad things about Hydra-shok, they weren't the bad things I said, which were said of Glaser Safety Slugs. Glasers were the ones that can't penetrate ordinary clothing. Perry ------------------------------ End of Extropians Digest V93 #273 *********************************