From extropians-request@extropy.org Fri Sep 24 16:59:40 1993 Return-Path: Received: from usc.edu by chaph.usc.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1+ucs-3.0) id AA26084; Fri, 24 Sep 93 16:59:30 PDT Errors-To: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Received: from ude.tim.ia.ung.gnu.ai.mit.ed (ude.tim.ia.ung.gnu.ai.mit.edu) by usc.edu (4.1/SMI-3.0DEV3-USC+3.1) id AA09127; Fri, 24 Sep 93 16:59:20 PDT Errors-To: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Received: by ude.tim.ia.ung.gnu.ai.mit.edu id AA11907; Fri, 24 Sep 93 19:51:57 EDT Received: from news.panix.com by ude.tim.ia.ung.gnu.ai.mit.edu via TCP with SMTP id AA11897; Fri, 24 Sep 93 19:51:19 EDT Received: by news.panix.com id AA19770 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for exi-maillist@ung.gnu.ai.mit.edu); Fri, 24 Sep 1993 19:51:19 -0400 Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 19:51:19 -0400 Message-Id: <199309242351.AA19770@news.panix.com> To: Extropians@extropy.org From: Extropians@extropy.org Subject: Extropians Digest X-Extropian-Date: September 24, 373 P.N.O. [23:50:47 UTC] Reply-To: extropians@extropy.org Errors-To: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Status: RO Extropians Digest Fri, 24 Sep 93 Volume 93 : Issue 266 Today's Topics: "Experiment of interest to AI and quantum computer designers" [1 msgs] FWD: Genetic programming and Stock Trading [1 msgs] Fermi Paradox Resolved! [1 msgs] Fermi Paradox Resolved! (Oops) [1 msgs] GAME: Improving on Tit-For-Tat [1 msgs] GUNS: Ammo will never really be hard to find... [1 msgs] GUNS: Buy Chinese (was: Don't buy Chinese) [1 msgs] GUNS: Don't buy Chinese (was GUNS: buy Chinese) [1 msgs] Info request on Information Markets/Idea Futures [1 msgs] Interstellar claim jumping attempt rebuffed [1 msgs] META: archive [3 msgs] META: archive [1 msgs] Meta: List Function [1 msgs] NEWS: Lloyd's? (was SPACE: limits on launch costs) [1 msgs] NEWS: Lloyd's? (was SPACE: limits on launch costs) [1 msgs] Netnews information filters. [1 msgs] SELF: Sleep Deprivation (was depression) [1 msgs] SMARTDRUGS: Deprenyl [1 msgs] Sorry about the repeats [1 msgs] philosophitis [1 msgs] Administrivia: No admin msg. Approximate Size: 51568 bytes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 10:28:35 -0400 From: "Perry E. Metzger" Subject: Interstellar claim jumping attempt rebuffed Nick Szabo says: > Steve Whitrow: > > ANNOUNCING A BET: I wager $20 (or U.K. pounds) that no one will pay > > me $10,000 for 10% of my rights to the universe, whether 10^-12 or > > 10^-11 universes > > Your claim, and all the other "equal-distribution" claims are > invalid, since I've already claimed the entire universe beyond > Earth orbit for myself. I'll consider offers. I bid $.02 for all of it! Perry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Sep 93 17:23:24 PDT From: edgar@spectrx.saigon.com (Edgar W. Swank) Subject: SELF: Sleep Deprivation (was depression) Randall M. Clague in msg 93-9-671 related anecdotes about sleep deprivation. My own experience was many years ago while still in high school, during Summer vacation. A friend of mine had told me that no-one could stay awake for 3 days in a row without becoming insane, so I set out to prove him wrong. I managed to stay awake at night by listening to an all night radio program "Music till Dawn" which played the classics. On the morning of the third day, my little sister asked me to read to her out of her kid's book. I found I had forgot how to read! At that point I called a halt to the experiment and slept. -- edgar@spectrx.saigon.com (Edgar W. Swank) SPECTROX SYSTEMS +1.408.252.1005 Cupertino, Ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 10:41:08 -0400 From: "Perry E. Metzger" Subject: "Experiment of interest to AI and quantum computer designers" Richard Kennaway says: > On a scale of bogosity ranging from Ludwig Plutonium to Richard Feynman, I > rate this at about the Penrose ("Emperor's New Mind") level. Please -- the fundamental unit of bogosity, as we all know, is the microLenat. See the following definition from the original hackers jargon file: BOGOSITY n. The degree to which something is BOGUS (q.v.). At CMU, bogosity is measured with a bogometer; typical use: in a seminar, when a speaker says something bogus, a listener might raise his hand and say, "My bogometer just triggered." The agreed-upon unit of bogosity is the microLenat (uL). Perry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 09:43:37 -0500 (CDT) From: derek@cs.wisc.edu (Derek Zahn) Subject: Netnews information filters. Clifford Adams: > I just thought I'd mention that I''m working on similar >things. (In fact today I did some work on virtual newsgroups and WWW >URLS--soon raters should be able to share information using the HTTP protocol.) I'm sure that many of us would be interested to hear more about this; would you care to explain? After such unabashed begging, I'll post some notes on another Pattie Maes paper (to keep my karma balanced). This one is with Robyn Kozierok, also at the Media Lab, and my copy of the paper is marked "submitted to the interchi-93 conference, amsterdam, april 93". I did not attend (heh) and don't know if it was presented there or what. I assume so. Title: "Learning Interface Agents" Abstract: Interface agents are computer programs that employ Artificial Intelligence techniques in order to provide assistance to a user dealing with a particular computer application. The paper discusses an interface agent which has been modelled closely after the metaphor of a _personal assistant_. The agent and user share the same (virtual) work environment consisting of the direct manipulation interface provided by the application at hand. They use the visual and graphical language provided by that interface as their means of communication. The agent learns how to assist the user (i) by observing the user's actions and imitating them, (ii) by receiving negative feedback when it takes wrong actions and (iii) by being trained by the user on the basis of hypothetical examples. The paper discusses how this type of learning agent can be implemented using _memory-based learning_ and _reinforcement learning_ techniques. It argues that the machine learning approach to building interface agents is a feasible one which has several advantages over other approaches: it provides a customized and adaptive solution which is less costly and ensures better user acceptability. Specifically, the paper argues that the particular approach presented is not subject to the criticisms typically uttered in relation to intelligent interfaces. One of the more annoying (but perhaps useful, who knows) aspects of this system is its use of a little graphical icon to represent the agent's state. The images for the icon are cartoon faces expressing such "mental states" as being alert, thinking, surprise, gratification, and so on. Also of great interest (besides their particular representation scheme and choice of learning algorithms) is a discussion of whether people actually would want any intelligent agents -- the obvious objection being that an interface performing complex inferential procedures might make users feel like they aren't in control, and might be confusing. I imagine that a copy of the paper could be gotten by writing to pattie@media.mit.edu or robyn@ai.mit.edu, if anybody is interested. derek ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 93 07:51:13 -0700 From: dasher@netcom.com (D. Anton Sherwood) Subject: META: archive Tim May: > (Harry S. told me at the Extropolooza that the idea of an archive of past > postings is being again considered. This is long overdue. Submission of > posts to such an archive would be voluntary, of course.) How about two posting addresses? Mail to ex-a would be archived, mail to ex-b not, but both would be reflected to the list. *\\* Anton Ubi scriptum? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 11:30:14 -0400 From: tburns@gmuvax.gmu.edu (T. David Burns) Subject: philosophitis > Perhaps we need a term for philosophers, like philosophitis - tendency >to form abstract content-free arguments with no-relevence at all to >reality and then proclaim that they are "objectively correct" or natural >law. What's the operational definition? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 11:30:34 -0400 From: tburns@gmuvax.gmu.edu (T. David Burns) Subject: GAME: Improving on Tit-For-Tat At 11:43 PM 9/21/93 -0500, paul whitmore wrote: >This months Sci Am, referring to recent paper in Nature, describes a >strategy that does better than Axelrod's tit-for-tat. 1) This is not new, Axelrod himself reported something like this in 1987. 2) Without saying under what circumstances it does better makes this rather mysterious. Many strategies can beat tit-for-tat. 3) Rappoport entered tit-for-tat in Axelrod's tournament, so it is arguably Rappoport's tit-for-tat rather than Axelrod's. Dave Burns tburns@gmuvax.gmu.edu (T. David Burns) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 93 09:57:27 MDT From: morgan@arc.ab.ca (Sean Morgan) Subject: FWD: Genetic programming and Stock Trading Forwarded from Neuron Digest ----------- Subject: Stock Trading From: raethpg%wrdc.dnet@wl.wpafb.af.mil Date: Thu, 09 Sep 93 13:53:25 -0500 [[ Editor's Note: Readers are reminded that the Moderator of this Digest should be awarded 10% of all profits made from using the ideas published here. -PM ]] Given the interest in the Digest on securities trading, I thought the attached message would be of interest to the readers. Best, Pete. I N T E R O F F I C E M E M O R A N D U M Date: 07-Sep-1993 06:10pm EDT From: @Sunburn.Stanford.EDU:BurmanJ SUBJ: GP and Stock Trading (Note: GP refers to genetic programming) As a GPer and registered investment advisor (great combination), I am very familiar with the characteristics of stock trading and the potential uses of GP towards trend prediction. If one studies the statistical characteristics of market activities, one finds that there is very little correlation between current, past and future behavior of stock prices ... this probably results from the Dow Theory which basically says that any market advantage in price is very quickly equalized by competition from investors and market makers (the people that control the price of stocks, bonds, etc.). However, if one also studies the pattern characteristics of stock prices over time (and volume), there are definite patterns that seem to emerge. The real key to market prediction is to try and characterize these patterns that can vary with time and price swings (i.e. they are not statistically stationary). >From another perspective, stock trading can be viewed as a zero sum game between a trader, the masses and the market makers or specialists. You want to avoid the behavior of the masses and be aware of the merchandising behavior of the market makers. Moreover, volume behavior is complex and can be related to price variation through temporal modeling. How to combine these ideas into a GP model is not at all easy ... also, attempting to predict market behavior in a stock through simulation is very different than actually trading. Selling out your investment is the hardest decision since sometimes it pays to cut your loses short versus waiting for a turn around that may come over a long period of time. My basic advice: you need to read several good books on the market and really understanding the details of the market mechanisms from fundamentals to how the market makers compete against the average investor. It may appear easy to try and develop a GP model for this application, but one is competing against professional traders on the New York Stock Exchange whose livelihood is to is take your money all the way to their bank ... oh by the way, these market makers know who is buying and selling and they can trade for their own accounts. For further discussion and opinions, contact: Jerry Burman, jab@joker.iipo.gtegsc.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 93 17:08:13 BST From: jrk@sys.uea.ac.uk (Richard Kennaway) Subject: META: archive D. Anton Sherwood writes: >How about two posting addresses? Mail to ex-a would be archived, mail to >ex-b not, but both would be reflected to the list. This wouldn't solve the problem of following up a message the author didn't want to be archived, in a message you do want to be archived. I appreciate the concerns of people not wanting their postings here to be spread around in public like caviar to the general, but would there be any objection to changing the list rules along the following lines: Permit anyone to make available to any member of the list a copy of any posting they may have saved (regardless of whether the recipient was a member when the posting was originally made). What reasons do people have for not wanting their postings to be archived? -- ____ Richard Kennaway __\_ / School of Information Systems Internet: jrk@sys.uea.ac.uk \ X/ University of East Anglia uucp: ...mcsun!ukc!uea-sys!jrk \/ Norwich NR4 7TJ, U.K. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 93 10:26:06 MDT From: morgan@arc.ab.ca (Sean Morgan) Subject: Fermi Paradox Resolved! Premise: Life is ubiquitous. Nearly every star system has planets. Nearly every planetary system has life-supporting planets. Life evolved inevitably on nearly every one of them. Intelligent life is the natural outcome. Conclusion: Intelligent life is all around us. Probably within a few light-years. So where are they? Barrow and Tipler note several possible reasons (purists will note that we are discussing "possible worlds" here, so the use of "possible" or "probable" is justified). This list has mentioned most of them. A major reason has been left out! My theory combines the threads on the Fermi Paradox with the recent threads on the selling of the universe (auctioning vs. homesteading, and the legal wrangles, involvement of the U.N., World Government, etc.). I theorize that *legal wranglings* and *planetary governments* have frozen expansion of *all* of these civilizations. They are so tied up with legal briefs about ownership, property tax, equal rights amendments (gives "illegal aliens" a new meaning), and whatnot that they are trapped on their home planets. The lawyers are, of course, very happy with this state of affairs. The usual argument about all it takes is *one* building of a Von Neumann Probe to expand across the galaxy in a few million years is *false*. Simple examination of the legal culture on our own planet--and by extension, all of our many neighbors--reveals that lawyers can replicate faster than any known process, including the purported 22-minute doubling time of bacteria-like nanomachines (hardly surprising, given that lawyers are a specialized form of bacteria). In fact, the Von Neumann Probes are actually carrying legal briefs to neighboring systems, introducing them to the law if they have not already discovered it (hardly!), and filing suit against them if they already have. Of course, a few civilizations (dare I call them that?) have made contact with their nearest neighbors, resulting in a flurry of lawsuits and torts. Since every theory needs to be falsifiable in order to be considered seriously, this is what we need to look for in order to confirm my theory: - every star system should be surrounded by a Dyson Sphere to house all the lawyers, suggesting an infrared signature. Clearly, star systems we can see are *not* primarily radiating in the infrared. Why? My theory is that we are seeing primarily visible light because of the well-known fact that lawyers always demand *outside window* offices. With the Dyson Spheres, each of the quadrillions of lawyers thus has a window on the outside of the Sphere, and what we are seeing in the visible spectrum are their _office lights_! (Ultra high-res images and spectral analysis will likely confirm this, as well as giving us the formula for new kinds of fluorescent light bulbs. Variable stars are of course telling us what their working hours are.) There's an old saying that a single lawyer in a town starves, two lawyers prosper. With the mass of the galaxy converted to lawyers and their briefs, imagine the galactic prosperity! -Klaus! von Future Prime ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 12:39:58 -0400 From: "Perry E. Metzger" Subject: META: archive Richard Kennaway says: > I appreciate the concerns of people not wanting their postings here to be > spread around in public like caviar to the general, but would there be any > objection to changing the list rules along the following lines: > Myself, I don't want to see this can of worms opened again -- catching all the wrigglers last time was pretty bad. I say we just leave it alone for now... Perry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 93 10:47:19 MDT From: morgan@arc.ab.ca (Sean Morgan) Subject: Fermi Paradox Resolved! (Oops) I just meant to archive that. Sorry. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 10:24:31 -0700 From: dkrieger@Synopsys.COM (Dave Krieger) Subject: GUNS: Buy Chinese (was: Don't buy Chinese) >From: eder@hsvaic.boeing.com (Dani Eder) >Subject: GUNS: Buy Chinese (was: Don't buy Chinese) >X-Extropian-Date: Remailed on September 24, 373 P.N.O. [13:20:21 UTC] >X-Message-Number: #93-9-1368 > >Recent history suggests that a totalitarian regime [...] >has a mean time to failure of two generations. [...] >At a sufficiently high standard >of living, people have the means to subvert a totalitarian regime - >desktop publishing, faxes, telephones, etc. They also will have a higher >level of education needed to run a more advanced economy - and I believe >it is no co-incidence that universities are often the site of revolts. > >[...] China >is growing rapidly economically. If it maintains an 8% growth rate >I give it a generation until the country has a high enough standard of >living to overthrow the present political system. Cool! How long until the U.S. has a sufficiently high standard of living to throw off _its_ present political system (or will Billary's War on Health reverse the trend toward a higher standard of living)? dV/dt Born in a bad mood ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 10:34:48 -0700 From: dkrieger@Synopsys.COM (Dave Krieger) Subject: NEWS: Lloyd's? (was SPACE: limits on launch costs) >From: eder@hsvaic.boeing.com (Dani Eder) >Subject: SPACE: limits on launch costs >X-Extropian-Date: Remailed on September 24, 373 P.N.O. [14:21:44 UTC] >X-Message-Number: #93-9-1370 > > Interesting social/legal problems would include: > > (1) What sticks up might fall down. If you don't end up > putting it where fall-down would be harmless, how do you > deal with the possibility of death and damage to others > in the event of a failure? > >You design it to the requirements to make it an insurable structure, >and then get insurance (probably through Lloyd's given the size and ^^^^^^^ >novelty). A 747 crash landing in a big city would hurt a lot of >people too, but they manage to get insurance. Ummmm... didn't Lloyds suffer a big meltdown recently? I read a piece in the WSJ about how underwriters in Bermuda are making a fortune picking up the pieces... dV/dt ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 10:38:13 -0700 From: dkrieger@Synopsys.COM (Dave Krieger) Subject: Info request on Information Markets/Idea Futures >From: perry@potlatch.hacktic.nl (Paul Michael Perry) >Subject: Info request on Information Markets/Idea Futures >X-Extropian-Date: Remailed on September 24, 373 P.N.O. [07:32:05 UTC] >X-Message-Number: #93-9-1362 > >I'd like to develop my literacy a bit and am looking for essays (you know, >RTFM manuals) on information markets and idea futures. >Anyone got anything archived which might fill me in a bit? > >Thanks, > >Paul > Paul Michael Perry FAX: +31 50 256662 > perry@potlatch.hacktic.nl Groningen HOLLAND Try EXTROPY #8, where Robin Hansen published a nice introduction to ideas futures. It also contains bibliographic cites to more detailed papers on the topic in the peer-reviewed literature, the main one being in a journal on gambling and games of chance, as I recall. I don't have Robin's new e-mail address handy here at work, but I bet he's still reading the list... dV/dt ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 13:48:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Harry Shapiro Subject: Meta: List Function >From Panix sysadmin. Internet connection flakeyness (jhawk) Fri Sep 24 13:12:54 1993 You may have noticed brief periods of time earlier today when our Internet connection was acting flakey, or was unavailabile. This is due to rerouting due to the Amtrak derailment. Hopefully it should not last long. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 14:06:24 -0400 From: "Perry E. Metzger" Subject: NEWS: Lloyd's? (was SPACE: limits on launch costs) Dave Krieger says: > Ummmm... didn't Lloyds suffer a big meltdown recently? Lloyds is for practical purposes an exchange -- it doesn't itself offer insurance per se. It provides a forum for the "names", high net worth individuals who participate in the market, to join into pools to bid on projects. The names have unlimited liability. Recently, the system has been breaking down, mostly because names are a bunch of coddled infants who think that if they bid too cheaply on a contract that someone else should pay for their mistakes. Lloyds is not, however, in and of itself in financial trouble -- its not in a position to be in financial trouble. > I read a piece in the WSJ about how underwriters in Bermuda are > making a fortune picking up the pieces... Yeah, Bermuda is the new hot offshore location for underwriters and reinsurance. Perry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 93 11:16:24 -0700 From: kwatson@netcom.com (Kennita Watson) Subject: Sorry about the repeats Sorry about the repeats. My Windows offline reader had *not* deleted my DOS offline reader's previous replies. Sorry for all the trouble. Problem is -- I answered all your questions, but never got a reply stating what I should do as a result! I'll assume my answers got lost. Let's see if I can find them.... Ah, here we are: Date: Mon, 20 Sep 93 11:12:58 -0700 From: kwatson (Kennita Watson) KW> I've been thinking of getting one while I still can. Can you tell me KW> more? I'm pretty clueless as to what would be a good weapon, a good KW> price, etc. Truth to tell, I like the idea of a 200-lb pull, KW> double-arch crossbow pretty well, because it's quiet and I think two KW> shots would handle most anybody, but a firearm may be better. What do you plan to use it for? Self-defense (home under normal circumstances, land/compound/street under extraordinary ones). What is the environment you plan to use it? Emergency. Are there children around? Not now. If the shit hits the fan, who knows? What are the secondary uses for the weapon? Hunting? Clubs? Contests? Target shooting to learn how to use it. Maybe contests if it turns out I'm any good at it. What can you afford for the weapon and accessories? That depends on how soon I would need to do it. I can shake loose $200 almost immediately, and would need somewhat more time and increasingly better reasons to get my hands on up to say $2000. Anything over that would take me significant amounts of time. Is it best to get all at once, or can I buy accessories afterwards (or maybe before, if it looks like the accessories will be outlawed first)? How much time an you find to train for and maintain your weapon? Maintenance is not one of my strong points. How much time I'd take would depend on how much fun it turned out to be. Something I wasn't likely to forget some important safety feature of if I didn't pick it up for years would be good, especially if the weapon is likely to be outlawed and thus opportunities to fire it scarce. Are you willing to learn reloading? I didn't know it was optional, which indicates that I don't know what it is. What are the attitudes of your significant others on the issue? Significant others? What significant others? How big is your hand? 7-1/8 inches from wrist crease to tip of middle finger, 8-1/2 inch spread from baby finger to thumb. BTW -- I want to learn to shoot with either hand (I'm normally left-handed) because one never knows what weapon will be available. What is your body weight? 160 pounds, compactly arranged. Let me know the above and I'll be more than happy to make suggestions. There are many good archery clubs in big cities. Some don't allow crossbows though. Am I talking through my hat on the archery issue? I don't want to be stuck with a crossbow if it turns out it won't stop somebody trying to get to me and my friends, or if ammo really is hard to buy/find/make. Thanks, Kennita Awaiting your reply, Kennita Kennita Watson | "Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc -- we gladly kwatson@netcom.com | feast on those who would subdue us. Not just pretty | words...." -- The Addams Family ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 12:55:43 -0400 (EDT) From: LEVY%BESSIE@venus.cis.yale.edu Subject: GUNS: Don't buy Chinese (was GUNS: buy Chinese) One of the reasons I refrain from posting a lot to this list is that, for some reason I don't understand, people seem to attend to the least signficant part of my message. The most recent example is Mike Price's comments about what happened in Tiannamen Square. I stand by my zany belief in the wrongness of murdering unarmed student protestors, and thank Richard Kennaway for replying to Mike's attempts to put blame on the students. Still, the incident itself is tangential to the point I was trying to make, which is that mainland Chinese products are often made by political prisoners in a slave-labor system. These people are in jail for exercising rights that you and I take for granted, like the right to complain about the quality of food at a grocery store. Since Richard has already addressed the issue of why trading with China will probably not improve the political climate there, I won't repeat his comments. I will, however, add that any positive benefits an action may engender must be weighed against the message that the action gives. In this case, the Chinese government (and other overseas criminals) have come to realize that they can continue to enslave their citizens and, as long as the price is right, continue to sell their goods in the Land of the Free. -- Simon! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 14:51:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Harry Shapiro Subject: META: archive a conscious being, D. Anton Sherwood wrote: > > Tim May: > > (Harry S. told me at the Extropolooza that the idea of an archive of past > > postings is being again considered. This is long overdue. Submission of > > posts to such an archive would be voluntary, of course.) > > How about two posting addresses? Mail to ex-a would be archived, mail to > ex-b not, but both would be reflected to the list. We could do that. We could also make a agent setting that put the appropriate x-header in the message. /hawk -- Harry S. Hawk habs@extropy.org Electronic Communications Officer, Extropy Institute Inc. The Extropians Mailing List, Since 1991 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 93 12:00:30 PDT From: tcmay@netcom.com (Timothy C. May) Subject: GUNS: Ammo will never really be hard to find... Somebody, apparently Kennita Watson, is talking about getting a crossbow because of fears that ammo may someday be hard to find: > Let me know the above and I'll be more than happy to make > suggestions. There are many good archery clubs in big cities. Some > don't allow crossbows though. > > Am I talking through my hat on the archery issue? I don't want to be > stuck with a crossbow if it turns out it won't stop somebody trying to > get to me and my friends, or if ammo really is hard to buy/find/make. > Look at war-torn areas like the former Yugoslavia and you'll see that ammo is still widely available. Granted, mainly to militia and the like. I cannot see the U.S. ever becoming one giant former Yugoslavia or Beirut, except in inner cities and ghetto jungles, so "running out of ammo" is even less likely than in these regions. The real threat to most folks will continue to be muggings, random murders, gang shootings, drug deals gone bad, home invasions (and the murders of all inside by the invading BATF goons), and crazies who take over restaurants and post offices. (Were I a woman, I'd flout the carry laws and carry a compact 9mm pistol in my purse. A girlfriend of mine many years ago did exactly this when she went to work a graveyard shift. Cops we met at the range (Sunnyvale Rod & Gun, 19 years ago!!) told her that's what their wives and girlfriends did, and that the odds of being caught are slim-to-none, with a slap on the wrist to anyone caught. (Of course, that was then and this is now, and "victim disarmament" (aka, "gun control") is tres trendy. Also, metal detectors have proliferated, and may be in various public buildings, corporate entrances, etc., so be careful.) Back to crossbows. Worrying about running out of ammo and instead taking up the crossbow is seriously wrong-headed. Take up the bow and arrow if you _like_ it, as entertainment, but trust to more modern technology where it counts. A case of 1000 rounds of 9mm ammo costs about $140. This is not the "premo" stuff many of us favor (Hydra-Shoks, Silvertips, and jacketed hollow-points in all their many flavors), but it'll certainly do in most shooting situations, expecially compared to trying to draw your crossbow from under your coat and take down several armed predators. And even if Moynihan and Company succeed in banning 9mm ammo, several boxes (200-300 rounds) should be still far better than medieval alternatives. Better still, the aforementioned case. (Should the worst occur, and ammo become scarcer, enough of it is already available that it'll be for sale on the black market. Maybe a dollar a round, but available. The moral: practice now.) (On the Moynihan proposal: Yes, a real proposal....an armed predator rarely does target practice, so a box of cartridges will last him for 20-30 murders, but law-abiding folks like us, who like to become proficient, will be shut out of practice---typical fairyland idea) What about shotguns? For in-home use, a 12-gauge shotgun is OK. For use in cars, on the street, and in close quarters, I say go with a handgun. A Glock 17 or 19 is cheap ($420 or so), is incredibly reliable, and is easy to learn to operate (no "Condition One" and "Condition Two" stuff). The Glock carries about 17-18 rounds. Other nice pistols are the SIG, the Beretta, etc. I've heard good things about the compact (but heavy) "Firestar," also in 9mm. The .45 is still popular, but much less so. "One-shot stops" are actually higher with proper 9mm ammo (115 grain Hydra-Shoks, for example). Also, the kick bothers some folks. (My Glock 9mm is more pleasant to shoot than my Colt Governement Model .45. I hear the Glock .45 is quite mild to shoot.) Revolvers are another possibility, as most shooting situations don't need more than six shots (if the shots are placed carefully, one or two ought to do it). A 4" barrelled Smith & Wesson 586 or 686 (stainless, and not really necessary, perhaps not even advisable) will handle mild .38 loads (not recommended, especially not for target practice!), hotter loads, and .357 loads. Costs range from $300-$400. Used guns are cheaper, obviously. A fair number of used .357 revolvers, from police forces that have switched to 9mm, are available in the $200-250 range. Perfectly fine guns, generally. The newer cartridges, .40 S&W and 10mm, don't seem to offer enough advantages over the 9mm to make up for their more limited availability (forget the "case of 1000 for $140" number) and increased cost. 9mm ammo is ubiquitous. So, a 9mm Glock 19 would be my overall choice. Try others, especially the SIG, to see what you like the best. Then practice at least two or three times a year. (I strongly favor the indoor ranges, as they allow targets to be pulled in closer (on pulleys) and thus allow short-range shooting. Most defensive shooting will be done at a maximum range of 10 yards (typically much less), so the "25 yard" and "50 yard" ranges at most outdoor ranges are ill-suited for defensive shooting. In fact, the whole "target practice" approach of bulls-eye targets is a bad idea.) Hope this helps. -Tim May -- .......................................................................... Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA | black markets, collapse of governments. Higher Power: 2^756839 | Public Key: PGP and MailSafe available. Note: I put time and money into writing this posting. I hope you enjoy it. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 93 12:17:57 -0700 From: plaz@netcom.com (Geoff Dale) Subject: SMARTDRUGS: Deprenyl Cross-posting from Exi-Bay, Me replying to W T : >>I don't know too much about deprenyl, but I think it's an MAO-B >>inhibitor. > >Correct on both counts. > >>It's best known for its use as something to try as a >>curative antidepressant, but is gaining favor as a life extension >>prophylaxis. The idea is probably that as people age, the monoamine >>oxidase in their synapses increases. This in turn affects >>catecholamine (dopamine) levels, which presumably lowers ones >>cognitive performance and appears to contribute to depression, >>Parkinson's disease, etc. >> >>So the idea is that taking low doses of it while you are young keeps >>you spunky as a monkey. Or something like that. To me, it seems a >>bit of a long shot, and I wouldn't do it, given the current state of >>knowledge, if I were completely healthy and had good aging genes. But >>that's up to the person shooting long, not up to me. He has different >>betting odds on it than me and I have no right to tell him what to do. >>And I'm anxious to find out what he discovers! > >I used to have a good info packet on this stuff. Including the results of >thirty years of clinical trials, but I gave it away. I'll see if I can find >another copy and post some pointers. > >>If ones cognitive performance were not up to ones normal snuff right >>NOW (like if you're really pissed off at forgetting appointments all >>the time), then ones betting odds would probably improve, once other >>classes of substances that have no dietary restrictions were tried. >>(I'm not sure about deprenyl, but with some MAO inhibitors, you can't >>eat cheese etc. because they contain tyramine. This is probably >>dose-dependent.) > >Deprenyl is more selective than most MAO inhibitors, it has no >"cheese-effect". One side effect I do know about is a synergy with MDMA >(ecstacy). It makes MDMA more potent. "Mondo 2000's Guide to the New Edge" >even reported than that, while on deprenyl even a little dose of MDMA can >kill you. This is not true as far as personal accounts and various >experimentation has proved, but be a little more conservative with the >stuff than usual. > >> There is a need for more classes of substances for >>people to try, since zillions of factors can affect zillions of types >>of cognitive problems and not everybody fits into the mold of one >>particular neurological diathesis or therapeutic class. And there is >>a screaming need for better imaging and other tests. >> >>RE: IS IT CONTROLLED: > >Deprenyl is a prescription only drug. > >_______________________________________________________________________ >Geoff Dale -- insert standard disclaimers here -- plaz@netcom.com > "A small case of mood poisoning, must be something I hate." > - Eli, the Father of the Friends (from Wild Palms) > > > _______________________________________________________________________ Geoff Dale -- insert standard disclaimers here -- plaz@netcom.com "A small case of mood poisoning, must be something I hate." - Eli, the Father of the Friends (from Wild Palms) ------------------------------ End of Extropians Digest V93 #266 *********************************