12 Message 12: From exi@panix.com Wed Jul 28 15:00:55 1993 Return-Path: Received: from usc.edu by chaph.usc.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1+ucs-3.0) id AA11091; Wed, 28 Jul 93 15:00:53 PDT Errors-To: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Received: from panix.com by usc.edu (4.1/SMI-3.0DEV3-USC+3.1) id AA13360; Wed, 28 Jul 93 15:00:24 PDT Errors-To: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Received: by panix.com id AA06557 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for more@usc.edu); Wed, 28 Jul 1993 17:55:11 -0400 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 17:55:11 -0400 Message-Id: <199307282155.AA06557@panix.com> To: Exi@panix.com From: Exi@panix.com Subject: Extropians Digest X-Extropian-Date: July 28, 373 P.N.O. [21:54:53 UTC] Reply-To: extropians@gnu.ai.mit.edu Errors-To: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Status: RO Extropians Digest Wed, 28 Jul 93 Volume 93 : Issue 208 Today's Topics: [1 msgs] AI: Searle's Chinese Torture Chamber [2 msgs] Cryonics & Pascal's Wager [2 msgs] FSF: Some Useful Software, No Useful Politics [1 msgs] Intellectual Property, ppl, etc. [1 msgs] Natural law and natural rights [2 msgs] Natural rights and Natural Law [1 msgs] PGP? [1 msgs] QUERY: GA's list [1 msgs] T-shirt design [1 msgs] Unsubscribe me, too! [1 msgs] Who is HeLa? (was Re: Who is signed up for cryonics) [1 msgs] Administrivia: No admin msg. Approximate Size: 52090 bytes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 08:33:56 -0800 From: lefty@apple.com (Lefty) Subject: Cryonics & Pascal's Wager Nick says: >Like Pascal's Wager, this analysis is incomplete without including >the possibility that transhuman or posthuman life may somehow >be hellish, eg via slavery to sadist posthumans. Quite true. The way I usually put this, when talking to fundamentalists, is to say that there's good news and bad news. The good news is that there _is_ a God; the bad news is that it's Cthulhu. -- Lefty (lefty@apple.com) C:.M:.C:., D:.O:.D:. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 9:04:39 PDT From: thamilto@pcocd2.intel.com (Tony Hamilton - FES ERG~) Subject: Intellectual Property, ppl, etc. > Ok, let's see if you will grant me a few datapoints, and I will argue > what conclusions can be made: > > 1) Software development tools and new techniques will continually push > the amount of bugs in software towards zero Towards zero, but never zero. > 2) Software will contually get more user friendly (like the Mac) so > anyone can use it Hopefully it goes much beyond the Mac... > 3) Updates to software can be pirated and there are diminishing returns > to successive updates. Only major rewrites will be interesting and they > take quite an amount of capitalization and labor. OK, on this you have to explain what the premises are. If the effort is also diminished on these successive updates, then the diminished returns are balanced out. In addition, with successive updates, you can learn from the previous round of pirating in order to more effectively combat it. I cannot accept that developers will push the limits of software technology at every turn, and not do the same with anti-piracy techniques. I'm also concerned about your second assertion, in that you cannot absolutely claim that _only_ major rewrites will be interesting. That all depends on what the product is and the nature of the updates. > 4) Points 1,2,3 continually lessen the need for SOFTWARE SUPPORT, and > SUPPORT will soon become largely automated (expert systems) which decreases > the need for standing armies of support staff. (see IBM and their > downfall) I'll accept this conclusion on the basis of arguments 1 and 2, but not 3. > 5) With points 1,2,3,4 there will be little to no money to be made in software. > Large companies like Microsoft able to finance decade long projects will > disappear, only small hobbiests will remain. Well, I have major problems with this. First, Microsoft is a relatively small company for the output it generates. Take a look at any one product team, like DOS, and you'll find a "small company". I also take exception with your conclusion that, based on the above arguments, there will be little or no money to make in software. True, we are on a trend _currently_ where the market is more and more competitive and harsh, but given that, the small companies and hobbiests are the ones suffering, and the big companies are the only ones strong enough to turn a profit. > 6) People need to work to survive and prosper Define "work"... > 7) Moravec's "retire at birth" robot worker industry won't be here for > a while. Define "a while". > 8) Big software projects are good, but they take millions of many hours > to develop. Apple, AT&T, IBM, and Microsoft are able to develop extremely > large and complex OSes fast because they can afford to pay highly skilled > people many tens thousands of dollars a year to spend all of their time > working. On the other hand, GNU has been working for 10 years on their > software and they still haven't produced the level of quality and complexity > manu commercial projects have. Furthermore, GNU workers are poor > (payed minimum wage or nothing) Even Unix has taken 20 years to evolve > because it has largely been used by academia and hackers. (also, > X11 isn't as good as commericial GUI's either) "Millions of many hours" it completely false. Thousands would be more appropriate, and only for large projects. ALso, why the focus on OS's? > 9) People are not altruistic, programmers will be reduced to net.panhandlers > (see CollegeWare, BegWare, and other frequent "please send money!" readme > file) Based on previous arguments I found to be false, so I cannot accept this one. Deleted the rest of your conclusions. One thing you seem to missing out on, which is a _big_ part of your model, is the widely available modules or objects upon which software is built. The fact that software is becoming increasingly _easy to write_, was totally left out of your argument. What it took 100 hours to do 10 years ago it takes an hour to do today. What it takes 100 hours to do today will probably take an hour to do 10 years from now. If your model is based upon programmers who generate line after line of C code all day, then that is where it falls apart. Even development tools will be written using Object Oriented languages. Super parallel machiens (nano or otherwise) will take care of code optimization and compilation. Ultimately, successful programmers will have to become great specification writers (get out your IEEE standards now, please...), since computers will likely be able to generate any and all kinds of software, given the requirements specification. And finally, once specifications can be given orally and in plain english, programmers will be all but obsolete. All those CS majors will have to stop programming, and go back to being _Computer Scientists_, or become artists of sort, since the true competition would then be in what things you could think of to specify. Programming won't be a game of technical skill, but instead imagination. That's the long-term. In short, though, I find fault in your arguments either in the short _or_ long term. Tony Hamilton thamilto@pcocd2.intel.com HAM on HEX ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 28 July 1993 09:01:19 PST8 From: "James A. Donald" Subject: Natural law and natural rights In <8033.9307262054@sys.uea.ac.uk>, jrk@information-systems.east-anglia.ac.uk (Richard Kennaway) wrote: > > I would be interested in seeing a translation of these sentences into > E-prime. In fact, I would be fascinated. Trivial: Our nature and the nature of the world, not the fiat of the state, defines the category of robbery and assault. We intuitively know the difference between coercion and consent because we know that other humans resemble ourselves. --------------------------------------------------------------------- | We have the right to defend ourselves and our James A. Donald | property, because of the kind of animals that we | are. True law derives from this right, not from jamesdon@infoserv.com | the arbitrary power of the omnipotent state. ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 28 July 1993 09:06:09 PST8 From: "James A. Donald" Subject: Natural law and natural rights In <9307261621.AA14144@snark.shearson.com>, pmetzger@lehman.com (Perry E. Metzger) wrote: > > "Andrew I Cohen" says: > > I enjoyed James Donald's recent essay on natural law. He has a > > compelling vision of natural law as the functional product of > > stable, long-term norms for regulating human interaction. > > The notion of NL appearing throughout the essay seems to be > > that of some objective body of rules by which, necessarily and > > independently of human wishes or whims, people can live, and > > live together peacefully. > > I've been looking all day for the great slab of marble upon which the > one true natural law is enscribed, but have yet to find it. Perhaps if > I only look longer, I'll find it. As I said before, read first, then flame As I said in the essay (which as usual you obviously did not read) there is no such slab of marble, and people who raise this matter display a profound ignorance of what natural law is. Of course total ignorance never stopped you before. Why should it stop you now. --------------------------------------------------------------------- | We have the right to defend ourselves and our James A. Donald | property, because of the kind of animals that we | are. True law derives from this right, not from jamesdon@infoserv.com | the arbitrary power of the omnipotent state. ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 28 July 1993 09:09:43 PST8 From: "James A. Donald" Subject: Natural rights and Natural Law > From: "James A. Donald" > > > >In <9307251850.AA27700@wookumz.gnu.ai.mit.edu>, UANDCOH@uncmvs.oit.unc.edu (Andrew I Cohen) wrote: > >> I am still a bit concerned about the grounding of such NL, and > >> how it is that we have access to it. It's an interesting move > >> to liken NL to some objectively "external" observable fact, > > > >As Tooby and Cosmides state, the human mind has specialized > >cognitive mechanisms for reasoning about social exchange. > >[Barkow, Cosmides, and Tooby, page 164] > > > >As I said in the essay, judging people is as important for > >survival as judging distances. Robbery and assault is not > >robbery and assault because the state decrees it so, but > >because we can see that it is so. > > > >We intuitively know the difference between coercion and > >consent because we know what kind of animals we are. > In <01H10HH6CIC290O1GZ@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu>, SULKOM@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Mark Sulkowski) wrote: > I'm confused here. I've never been quite clear at what level > this "intuition" of right and wrong operates on (according to your > understanding). > > Are you suggesting that this intuition is hard-wired in? > For example, I've heard of cases where people with brain damage > have great difficulty in performing certain mental tasks. For example, > a person who is no longer able to recognize 'fruit' with ease, or 'humor', > or other things. Are you suggesting that it is possible that someone > with just the right brain damage might not recognize 'theft' or 'right > and wrong'? (And does this explain Karl Marx ;) Absolutely - and that is roughly what Tooby and Mavrides (see above cite) show by their experiments. Of course this intuition is not independent of the world, it requires the world in order to form, but we are hard wired to respond to the world in certain ways. > It would be nice if you could pin all of this down. Several weeks > ago in extropians I asked if there was such a thing as "creole morality". > (See latest EXTROPY for discussion of "creole morality".) It occurs to me > that you may be asserting there is. I missed, or unwisely ignored, that discussion. If "Creole" is used in the sense of language research, yes, that is not far from what I am arguing. > I really DON'T want to get into a huge debate on abortion on > this list, but I would like to ask something here. WHY should we shoot > Randal Terry? I could place a spin on this as follows: > > "If women go around seeking to kill their unborn babies, then > we shoot them (possibly after transfering the fetus to another womb). > After all, the women would be murderers. Otherwise we let them be." > > I don't see how this is conceptually different from your example. > Also, if it is possible to be pro-life, where is the pro-choice "intuition"? Like I said, if Randal Terry proposes to have those unborn babies implanted in himself, then he has an argument. But somehow I doubt that do gooders seeking to rescue unborn babies from their hosts will ever be as much of a nuisance as are do gooders seeking to rescue children from their natural parents. Let us see an "adopt a fetus agency" in operation. I predict a large excess of supply and an extreme shortage of hosts. > >Plainly in a state of nature, a man who went around > >violently preventing murder and robbery amongst strangers, > >by killing and maiming murderers and robbers, would be a > >hero. A man who went around violently forcing women to > >carry their babies to term would be a dangerous lunatic to > >be killed at the first safe opportunity to do so. > > I honestly wish that were so 'plain' to me! It's not! Are you claiming that if you did that then your survival prospects would be good, or are you claiming you ought not to be shot as a dangerous lunatic for doing that, but that you certainly would be shot? If the answer is yes, you would be shot, but you claim that you should not be shot for such actions, then you are objecting to the content of natural law, not disagreeing about what constitutes natural law. --------------------------------------------------------------------- | We have the right to defend ourselves and our James A. Donald | property, because of the kind of animals that we | are. True law derives from this right, not from jamesdon@infoserv.com | the arbitrary power of the omnipotent state. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 12:57:40 EDT From: fnerd@smds.com (FutureNerd Steve Witham) Subject: AI: Searle's Chinese Torture Chamber Tim Starr sez- > ... > Imagine you're an intelligence agent that has been given instructions on how > to communicate with a field operative. All you know is that if he tells you > X, you're to tell him A; if he tells you Y, you're to tell him B. > > You get a message from the operative: Y. You reply: B. What did you just > say? What did you tell him? What do A, B, X, and Y mean? He knows this, > but you didn't need to know, so you weren't told. > > >From your field operative's perspective, you seem to know what you're > communicating. But you don't. The point is, "you", the agent, aren't the person who the field operative is communicating with. He is communicating with the system: {agent+instructions+ scratchpaper}. That whole system *does* know what it's saying. The field operative may be fooled into thinking you're the person, but that's irrelevant. Talking about the agent alone is like talking about the processor without its memory contents (program+data), or the neurons considered separately from their synapses, arrangement and connection to sensors/effectors. > Searle's argument is that computers can seem like they know what they're > communicating in the same way, but they don't. His argument is designed so > that people trained to approach subjects from one point of view only, the > third-person, external point of view, have to approach it from another > point of view, the first-person, internal one. In other words, he's trying to locate the homunculus, the little person inside the person. But there is no such person to be found in either a real person, an upload, or an AI. Only the person as a whole is a person! > It may be objected that this first-person perspective is unverifiable. On > the contrary, it is - in principle, at least. If you were hooked up to my > sensory and nervous system so that you got the same sensory input I did, > presumably you'd "sense" the same things, and share this part of my point > of view. If you were hooked up to me at a higher level, a sort of mechanical > telepathy, then you'd be able to observe my point of view at the level of > what I think, intend, mean, and understand. This is an implausible idea that's worth going along with. Presumably if what you sensed someone thought was confirmed by their later actions, you'd have a verification. > Then, if I were the intelligence agent in the above scenario, you'd be able > to observe that I'd have no awareness whatsoever of what A, B, X, and Y > mean. You'd be able to observe for yourself that I had no understanding of > what I was communicating, even though the field operative wouldn't be able > to tell this about me. Whoa, as I said, the agent is not the system. You've wired the mechanical telpathy wrong. Going along with the idea that it's possible, you'd have to wire it to the higher-level, think/intend/mean/understand connections of the whole system (these you would find by analyzing the agent's instructions just like you would presumably analyze a telepath-ee's brain, and then modify the agent's instructions to tell him what signals to send along the telepathy wires). Then you, not the agent, would sense what was going on in the system's mind. Searle puts a human inside his system, and then assumes that the human is where you should look for the consciousness, rather than looking at the structure of the system as a whole. Consider this version of the experiment: we put me and Searle in a room. You see me through a window; Searle is hidden behind a curtain. You ask me a question; I frown and turn off the outside intercom. Searle answers. I turn the intercom back on and answer as if I had done the thinking. Do I know what Searle was thinking? Of course not. So what? -fnerd imitate me ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 10:31:19 PDT From: Eli Brandt Subject: FSF: Some Useful Software, No Useful Politics > From: eisrael@suneast.east.sun.com (Elias Israel - SunSelect Engineering) > Why is it that every time I use the phrase "intellectual property," you > think I'm talking about the law? Probably because that's the only thing at issue. I think everyone here will agree that you should be able to enforce whatever contracts you can get both parties' digital signatures on. Sell your ideas all you want in that fashion. The only questionable forms of `intellectual property' are those that require laws binding upon third parties. Third-party compliance is essential for patent law as it stands, and a major component of copyright law. I don't know about trade secrets. If you can come up with techniques that eliminate this dependence, I'm sure everyone will be very happy. The current notion of `intellectual property' is essentially an after-the-fact hack to try to make software act like bricks or turnips. But there really ought to be a better way for people to make their fortune than by trying (with minimal success) to artificially eliminate one of software's prime advantages over turnips, its low marginal cost of production. > Elias Israel Eli ebrandt@jarthur.claremont.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 13:38:06 -0500 (EST) From: LEVY%BESSIE@Venus.YCC.Yale.Edu Subject: QUERY: GA's list Does anyone know of an e-mail list for Genetic Algorithms? Please send replies privately to LEVY@YALEHASK or LEVY%YALEHASK@VENUS.YCC.YALE.EDU. Thanks, Simon Levy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 10:43:00 -0700 From: dkrieger@Synopsys.COM (Dave Krieger) Subject: Who is HeLa? (was Re: Who is signed up for cryonics) At 11:43 PM 7/27/93 -0500, Craig Presson wrote: > Lefty writes: >|> A woman named Helen Lang died of, I believe, cervical cancer. One of her >|> doctors used samples of her cancer cells to produce the first "immortal" >|> culture, now know as "Hela cells". Her family sued to recover the >|> proceeds, but I don't know how the case turned out. >I remember experimenting on HeLa cells at MIT. I thought the name >was Helen Lane, BTW, FWIW. When "Sixty Minutes" reported on HeLa cell cultures in the early 80's, the donor was identified as Henrietta Lacks. I seem to recall National Geographic giving that name also, in their article that appeared about the same time. dV/dt ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jul 93 10:43:10 U From: "Kent Hastings" Subject: T-shirt design T-shirt design Here is a .GIF file signed with the "test" userid public key found at the end of this message. This should make it through our restrictive e-mail gateway. Enclosed T-shirt design uses a B&W version of that R. Cobb cartoon: "Well...at least we don't have to worry about Anarchy anymore." Maybe we could get permission from the copyright "owners." -----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE----- Version: 2.3 iQBFAgUALFaNh3MLlQpAXf1hAQGLgQF/WrSWPaz9fc9bs5nRTPyo6bfQ7i1xiU5N kHGzccFsfpWxssG72WM2uh418P+APuDxrSkEYgljcHVueC5naWYAAAAAR0lGODlh kAE/AYAAAAAAAP///ywAAAAAkAE/AQAC+4yPqcvtD6OctNqLs968+w+G4kiW5omm 6sq27gvH8kzX9j0D+q7j/g8MCocKnhFATCqXzCbmeOg5p9SqVXbMRpHXrvcLhmSh CG5CGk6r17+x9tFDB+Tsuv3+cZMX+rdhhxcoOFjUB8hgmKhHyNjIpLiHCLnlJ8nj iJnpAhlZuBhRKdGpSVraYQjq9mTEcWn6CntBJ/ap4UoLaFZ2G9vrW4irmsdJfPh7 /Dv7VysSZ7zBiiwNKyec4qzbOpc93e2IFno9uvrsbU4oFQ1zibrct819Lm+XrtzC 62nPVz7fr1Zvo5hAfwTXmNF3TyCxggzBHETIQiGnhhSvPIwX+wNjxY2YLnL8+Mgd Iou7QJocsrAKOI0nW2ZMOWWly5k18O1jifIhCnwQd44LOAlIuEc2PVEBd2LMlhw/ a8K8MXTJIZzwYuok4SorVRVFfRRV55UfUS49xeZc2ownWCxmcXRdC7RnkGdUu869 CgIuPLni+LJF2PbvVqF06gYOu2yE3apO/b4EfPjFYiFiDTtmmzjE5MhcOTOF6Dli aLf2LEs9mBb05RKTG+Mc3Xl14wamkyDVLFe2YtiSD/P2qfuvg62/75XBnfsiGVVa mlIiq5f2uDfTfa9cG4p69F2FlZ5pPjhD2WBEbg8Lz3250onS2w239jxXuM3X1WJn 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PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 11:01:06 PDT From: thamilto@pcocd2.intel.com (Tony Hamilton - FES ERG~) Subject: PGP? Could someone refer me to information regarding this public key encryption stuff? Thanks. Tony Hamilton thamilto@pcocd2.intel.com HAM on HEX ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 13:03:25 -0500 From: extr@jido.b30.ingr.com (Craig Presson) Subject: Natural law and natural rights In <2c56b1b8.jamesdon@jamesdon.infoserv.com>, "James A. Donald" writes: |> In <8033.9307262054@sys.uea.ac.uk>, jrk@information-systems.east-anglia.ac.uk (Richard Kennaway) wrote: James A. Donald writes: >Robbery and assault is not >robbery and assault because the state decrees it so, but >because we can see that it is so. > >We intuitively know the difference between coercion and >consent because we know what kind of animals we are. |> > |> > I would be interested in seeing a translation of these sentences into |> > E-prime. In fact, I would be fascinated. |> |> Trivial: |> |> Our nature and the nature of the world, not the fiat of the |> state, defines the category of robbery and assault. "Defines the category of" is a little squishy. How about just "defines" or "allows us to distinguish robbery and assault as crimes" or something? A critical point here is the interaction between culture and nature. In fact different interpretations of law are observed in different cultures, and each treats its customary law as axiomatic. You mentioned this in the original essay, but didn't treat it in detail. _We_ share many assumptions and preferences that color our behavior but are not universals. |> We intuitively know the difference between coercion and |> consent because we know that other humans resemble |> ourselves. This point is even more culture-dependent (in fact often false in situations of cultural clash), and depends critically on the "as seen by our hypothetical reasonable man in possession of all the relevant facts" proviso. I'd love to see natural law rescued somehow, both philosophically and in everyday law and commerce, and then I'd like to rub Joe Biden's nose in it; but I think this requires more discernment by the Man In the Street and the Critter in the Congress, not to mention the Muckymuck on the Bench, than we can expect any more. Again, I think Benson, in _The Enterprise of Law_, covers a lot of this ground for us; I hereby administer myself one swift-kick-in-the-rear for buying it and not finishing it (at least I remember what shelf I put it on). ^ / ------/---- extropy@jido.b30.ingr.com (Freeman Craig Presson) /AS 5/20/373 PNO /ExI 4/373 PNO ** E' and E-choice spoken here ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 11:05:21 -0700 From: dkrieger@Synopsys.COM (Dave Krieger) Subject: AI: Searle's Chinese Torture Chamber At 9:41 AM 7/28/93 +0000, starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu wrote: >Imagine you're an intelligence agent that has been given instructions on how >to communicate with a field operative. All you know is that if he tells you >X, you're to tell him A; if he tells you Y, you're to tell him B. > >You get a message from the operative: Y. You reply: B. What did you just >say? What did you tell him? What do A, B, X, and Y mean? He knows this, >but you didn't need to know, so you weren't told. Okay, Tim; now let's suppose that your set of lookup tables is much more complex: instead of a simple two-possible-inputs, two-possible-outputs system, you have a much greater list of recognized inputs, available outputs, conditional and history-based responses ("If the last three messages were Y-in, B-out, W-in, then send M out."), and so forth. Suppose that the system is scaled up to the point that it-plus-you passes the Turing test. It can converse with an outside interlocutor (in Mandarin, if you like) with sufficient verisimilitude that it cannot be distinguished from a human being. (There's no way you could implement such a system using a human being and lookup tables with a response time of less than centuries, but this is only a thought experiment anyway.) >Then, if I were the intelligence agent in the above scenario, you'd be able >to observe that I'd have no awareness whatsoever of what A, B, X, and Y >mean. You'd be able to observe for yourself that I had no understanding of >what I was communicating, even though the field operative wouldn't be able >to tell this about me. Then the system it-plus-you _is_ intelligent. You (who are only part of the system, the "CPU", if you will) are not the mind that is experiencing the conversation. The intelligence does not reside in you, nor in the lookup tables, but in the system formed by the union. A CPU with no software is not capable of doing algebra analytically, but CPU-plus-Mathematica is. Searle argues that it would be possible (in principle) to implement a Chinese room that is indistinguishable from a mind, but isn't "really" a mind, because one component of that mind (the person performing the table lookups, the CPU, the "intelligence agent", Searle's Demon) is not itself intelligent. Neither is the speech center of your brain itself an entire mind... but the system formed from it, plus the other components of the nervous system, is. Searle's fallacy is that he mistakes the Demon for the interacting mind. The intelligence is a characteristic of the system-as-a-whole, not of any single part. None of the individual faces of a cube has the property of "being a cube", but the system of six-faces-in-a-particular-relationship does. dV/dt ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 12:23:49 -0600 (MDT) From: Silicon Surfer Subject: Unsubscribe me, too! Ive been having the same problem as Dwayne (hiscdc@lux) has been: All attempts to unsunscribe myself from this list have been unsuccessful. Ive tried everything also, and am still receiving loads of mail from the list. PLEASE UNSUBSCRIBE ME!!! Hasta, Silicon Surfer ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 11:28:37 -0700 From: dkrieger@Synopsys.COM (Dave Krieger) Subject: Cryonics & Pascal's Wager At 8:33 AM 7/28/93 -0800, Lefty wrote: >there's good news and bad news. The good news is that there >_is_ a God; the bad news is that it's Cthulhu. >Lefty (lefty@apple.com) >C:.M:.C:., D:.O:.D:. I have written a hymn to Cthulhu, but I can't write additional verses because I don't know any of the other verses to the old song on which it is based (which some of you may recognize): Cthulhu loves the little children, All the children of the world. Baked or boiled, nuked or fried, In the stew or on the side, Cthulhu loves the little children of the world. dV/dt ------------------------------ End of Extropians Digest V93 #208 ********************************* &